A Retail Media/PDP Silo-Busting Deep Dive, with Jack Lindberg, Head of Product Strategy & Design at Shalion

Transcript

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Lauren Livak Gilbert (00:00):

Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, where industry leaders share insights, strategies, and stories to help brands win in the ever-changing world of commerce.

Peter Crosby (00:23):

Hey everyone. Peter Crosby here from the Digital Shelf Institute. As long listeners of this podcast know there's few things that tick us off more than the retail media team and the e-commerce team and even the supply chain teams, not finding a way to work together towards a single shared goal for Max ROI. But that's because it's really hard. Our guest today, Jack Lindberg, head of product strategy and design at Shalion has been working intensely on how teams can do some silo busting, armed with the right framework data and aligned incentives. Welcome to the podcast, Jack. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jack Lindberg (01:00):

My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

Peter Crosby (01:02):

Yeah. One of our huge things that we champion here is breaking down the freaking silos between retail media and the PDP and the teams that work on them so that all of it, all the boats are lifted and you spend a ton of time looking at data for both those things. So we would love you to start walking us through how are you seeing brands successfully connect retail media and the digital shelf?

Jack Lindberg (01:34):

Yeah, that's a super great question, Peter. In my experience, most brands think they're connecting retail media with the digital shelf, and in reality, they're not super doing that. I think it comes down to what I would describe as shipping artwork chart to customers that the way we structure our organizations customers feel that we aren't talking to one another, and we've built these silos within our orgs that make content and retail media feel like separate parts of an organization. What I've been working on doing as CHA is trying to revamp some of the ways we've conceptualized digital shelf frameworks and I've come up with my own new one that I think is a little bit more customer centric. We're ready. I know this is what thought leadership is all about. Making things up,

Peter Crosby (02:25):

Please lead.

Jack Lindberg (02:29):

So I've been calling it act, which is my replacement for cars, which was a classic one.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (02:36):

Oh, we use scanner in my old days.

Jack Lindberg (02:38):

Scanner. That's a good one.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (02:40):

Well, it's like a version I've heard Scars, scanner and cars, so search content, assortment, navigation, ratings and reviews.

Peter Crosby (02:48):

That sounds very violent. I know when you said acts, the first thing I thought of was AX Body Spray, so,

Jack Lindberg (02:56):

Oh,

Peter Crosby (02:56):

Ax. I can't wait to see where this is taking us.

Jack Lindberg (02:58):

Oh, with A-T-A-C-T.

Peter Crosby (03:01):

Cool.

Jack Lindberg (03:01):

Like the tests we took to get into college. Oh God. Bad memories too long ago. Which stands for Attract, convince, transact.

Peter Crosby (03:13):

Okay,

Jack Lindberg (03:14):

So two of the things that I think the blind spots that cars has that I think ACT sort of builds upon. One is CARS is thinking about visibility solely as search and typically organic search, and we have to think about visibility as a two-part game where one can be visible either through organic visibility or paid visibility, or both hopefully at the same time. And having people actually be able to find your product is the first step in a customer journey to actually purchasing your product. This is totally different across retailers. The mechanisms by which you become visible and how many organic versus paid slots and whatnot, completely variable. As you go through different retailers, especially on the more long tail retailers, the slots for retail media in search are even fixed, so there's a sponsored slot always in slot seven that never moves, so you can't be organic rank seven.

(04:14):

It doesn't exist. And I think having that type of context is helpful when thinking about balancing paid versus organic visibility. The second pillar of the ACT framework is convince, which is thinking about how do you have a PDP that sells value and not just compliance. So the three big things here are content ratings and reviews and price and promo cars doesn't talk about price and promo at all, and price and promo is a really strong factor to help people make buying decisions. If you're the best price product in your immediate competitive set, especially if you have strong content and have good ratings and reviews, customers are more likely to buy you. That being said, there are some weird interaction effects within this pillar that are worth mentioning. There was a good study I think last year or two years ago from the Northwestern Business School that highlighted actually having exactly a five star review or five star rating on your PDP actually reduces conversion rate

Peter Crosby (05:24):

Totally suspicious because

Jack Lindberg (05:26):

Customers think it's weird, right?

Peter Crosby (05:28):

Yeah.

Jack Lindberg (05:28):

Too perfect. And that too perfect. Having reviews that say, Hey, something was wrong with this product actually helped people believe that it's valuable or that you didn't position it in a way that it's for everyone being more specific about who this product is for and what the use case is, and therefore having some negative reviews because people bought it for the wrong purpose actually helps people believe that your product is the right product for 'em. But the other piece about the ACT framework that I think is really important is for ages we've been measuring content in terms of compliance. The retailer asks for six images, you have six images. We haven't really been measuring, is that an image that attracts shopper's attention? Does it help aid brand recall? Does it help convince customers of the value prop you're trying to put across rather than just, I met the requirements of this retailer and therefore I'm done in terms of content?

Peter Crosby (06:27):

Well, those are harder to measure often, right? Those,

Jack Lindberg (06:30):

Yeah, for sure.

Peter Crosby (06:31):

That's value levels.

Jack Lindberg (06:32):

It's definitely harder to measure. There are some interesting players in the space that I think do a really good job of this visit or dragonfly. Both have some really cool ways of measuring content quality that I think if you're not familiar with them, shameless plug, it's not my company. Go check it out. On the transact side, the final pillar, this is really about availability and assortment. So can a customer buy this product and can they buy the right version of the product? So they want a can of Coke, but they want a 12 pack and not a single. Do you actually have the version that they need? The piece that I think is tricky about transact generally, and then what I think kind of breaks the retail media equation is if you think about Walmart that has something like 4,600 retail locations, they have at least that many digital shelves that because retailers are connecting the in-store pick and pack availability, price promo assortment to the online version of that. If you treat Walmart as one coherent or cohesive entity from a retail media standpoint, you're missing the individual store level granularity that those things have. For example, if you buy a geo-targeted DSP campaign in a location where your product isn't ever stocked in that Walmart, your driving traffic to a store, that their product isn't there, and we sort of allied those things in retail media frequently where no one's ever showed me, Hey, can you show me a distribution plan for this product before you write the retail media plan?

Lauren Livak Gilbert (08:24):

But they should, but they should,

Jack Lindberg (08:26):

Right? And I think this is one of those things that befuddles me to this day, but it's really important to think about when you're trying to connect these dots between the digital shelf and its physical counterpart to the retail media activations that try to get people to buy both online and in store.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (08:48):

So to that point, I think I'm trying to think about the reason for that in terms of campaign planning and campaign planning has always been done in silos because it made sense. If you think about your in-store planogram, it didn't change very often and you had your end cap and you had your shelf talkers and you had just very standard approaches to an in-store retail media, and that blows out of proportion in the hundreds of different types when you think about it online, and that's a whole different team talking about a whole different set of options. While the in-store team might have a completely different strategy, campaign planning is just not set up for that. And one piece of it, and I'd love your thoughts on this, is I think the briefing process is a really big challenge in that, and I think you kind of address that as you talked about kind of creating content when you're briefing an agency or you're briefing your internal teams, the brief is usually just built off of one specific channel and it's not a multi-channel approach, which makes it even harder to plan your overall campaign. I don't know if you've seen that, but that's something I've really kind of been diving into lately

Jack Lindberg (10:00):

For sure. I've seen, especially when we think about old school shopper, the process I've seen agencies go through is you RFP, the retailer, and you say, here's my objective. Give me a media plan or some set of media activities that help me reach this goal. The fundamental value prop of retail media is I have very unique first party data about this customer set because of the retail level transactions that I have about them. That doesn't really help you identify how that customer shops across different retailers or interacts with your non-retail media dollars in any way, which I think when we see agencies mature, I've seen them do a much better job now, but not all of thinking about how to coordinate national media search, programmatic social influencer, retail media shopper, the whole nine yards in a more cohesive approach, especially in moments where you can take, which is sometimes called a national pull down, where you take the overall creative lever or the creative idea from the national campaign and you pull that down into a retail environment and twist it a little bit to be more conversion driving than awareness driving. Those are the types of efforts in terms of omnichannel activation that I've seen be most effective. I think as a brand, we need to be more exact with our retail partners about what the goal is of these campaigns and when you go to a retail partner and say, Hey, my goal is to drive total sales not only on this retailer, but everywhere retailers need to do a better job of having that be an acceptable goal. That's a media goal, not a retailer level goal,

Lauren Livak Gilbert (11:55):

And that connects back to joint business planning. But I will not dive into that because that's a whole nother field of questioning. So let's help build the playbook then for brands to think about how they can connect retail media and digital shelf. So give us a practical example of a specific digital shelf insight that might directly influence a retail media campaign.

Jack Lindberg (12:20):

Sure. I'll give you some ideas of things to look at and what you might do. This is definitely not exhaustive. Take it as a starting place. A really simple one is thinking about organic rank. When I first started in the industry, the funny joke, which happens to be true that I was told was the best place to hide a dead body is on page two of the search results. And if you're there organically, potentially investing in retail media to become visible on page one is a great thing to do, especially in an automated fashion if you're trying to drive sales on that particular scale. So the feedback loop would be something like, see you're on page two. Find that campaign that has the right combination of product and keyword bid up until you're visible on page one, a super basic one. I think that's kind of like bread and butter.

(13:17):

I want to do a little bit more of a more advanced one. So one thing you might do is say, Hey, I have excess inventory in location A and I am out of stock in location B. What you might do is say you're running a DSP campaign through DV 360 or the trade desk is split out your line items on a geo level, either zip code or DMA, whatever that might be, turn off the one where you're out of stock and increase the budget in the one where you have excess inventory. And that might be a way to basically stop driving traffic to the store where you don't have anything to sell and increase the traffic to the store where you have too much stock.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (14:04):

But I love that because it takes multiple different functions and the right cohesive data set to be able to loop those two things together. You need to have your inventory numbers in a platform that your digital shelf team and your retail media team is looking at, and I think that's also really great piece of feedback here. You need to have a dashboard that shows you all of the data in one place so you can make these kind of correlations together.

Jack Lindberg (14:35):

And I think where I've seen the strongest brands work together is engaging the supply chain team as part of the media discussion.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (14:42):

I love that

Jack Lindberg (14:44):

You have to know what you can sell and where and what's profitable for you across each retailer. Different SKUs at different retailers will have different contribution margins, and when you think about retail media, the goal can be to just increase unit volume, but preferably it's increasing unit volumes of the right SKUs that actually make you and the retailer money. There are lots of ways to make enemies of your retailer by driving a ton of volume on skews that they lose money on every transaction. So being mindful of that as you put together your plans helps you not get backed into a corner when you go into next year's JP when the retailer says, Hey, you need to now increase your trade funding or your co-op funding because you've been bullying us to sell this skew that is unprofitable for us.

Peter Crosby (15:36):

That's one of the sort of moves, planning moves you can make. Do you have a couple of others that people should keep in mind to try and reach these objectives?

Jack Lindberg (15:45):

Yeah, I think a good thing to think about is what I would call right to win. So I think the fundamental piece of business strategy is basically where do you want to compete and how are you going to win? And I think most brands and their agency partners don't do enough identification of where to play, which is basically anything that a customer could potentially search to buy me, I want to be there, which is sort of like a shotgun strategy to retail media. What I would do instead is identify pockets where you have either a compelling differentiator in terms of value prop, so you are unique in the market in some way that makes people want to buy your product over the other product set up here next to you on the digital shelf. And that takes a lot of work to audit the content of your competitors and see what's the value prop they're trying to put across, why do they think someone's going to buy their product and how will I position my product either in a similar or differentiated way to come across better?

(16:52):

Then also thinking about rice, I see this a lot in luxury goods, especially in the beauty or makeup space where there's the drugstore brand that's at $5 a unit and the ultra luxury brand that's at $75 a unit and they're right next to each other, and maybe that's not the best place to fight because you're going after a shopper that when exposed to the $5 replacement might not be able to tell why you're worth that much more money. I think that's a really strong place to look to figure out, am I competitively priced for the competitive set on this specific page of the internet? And doing that research in advance helps you, saves you the headache of being in positions where you're buying a ton of ads on keywords that aren't converting, and then you check on your top competitors on promo and they were always better priced than you and you just were never going to be competitive in that sale.

Peter Crosby (17:58):

So Jack, we would love some examples of brands doing this well, and I know you may or may not be able to mention any names. I don't want to give anyone secrets away, but I'd love your sense of a brand or two that are doing this well and how you see them organize their work so that this happens, not by chance, but by intention.

Jack Lindberg (18:21):

Sure. Thoughts of that?

(18:23):

I won't plug one of my own clients. I was at a conference today in London and I sat at lunch with a lovely group of people from a beauty brand that sells both in the consumer space and in the luxury space, and they've done a really good job of building the retail media function in conjunction with the content function across all of the brands simultaneously. What I've seen in the beauty space especially, but it happens in other categories as well, is what I call the purple shampoo problem, where I am a manufacturer and I have multiple brands that compete in the same aisle with different value props and different target customers at different price points. So I have four sunscreen brands that I make all of them and figuring out how to divide the digital shelf and who has a right to win, where and why and what contribution margin, all of those skews contribute and how to successfully drive overall growth of that category at that retailer is something that this particular manufacturer really has a good grasp on where I've seen a lot of folks stumble where the brand manager at all the brands say, I don't really care what the other people are doing.

(19:42):

I want to be number one on this keyword for no good reason. And it makes the retail media manager's job difficult to say, well, if everyone wants to win and I'm playing multiple players on the chess board, or let's pick a different game than it's multiplayer, I don't know on risk and I'm playing with multiple characters at the same time, how do I divide up the digital real estate equitably is a really tough challenge for a lot of these manufacturers.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (20:14):

And we opened the conversation talking about org structure and kind of what teams should look like and I think a really big piece of that. I see that challenge as well a lot, Jack, but I think a big piece of that is having the right goals and objectives so that you aren't pitting cross-functional functions or brands against each other. So if your metrics, so let's say sunscreen for example, you have five different brands and they only have a metric for each of their brands, then the whole company's going to lose because they're going against each other. So having one goal as a category is a different way of approaching that, but that takes leadership, it takes the right org structure, it takes goals and objectives to think about that. So I love that connection because it really fits heavily into org design and how you think about yourself as one company

Jack Lindberg (21:01):

For sure. I also think it really puts a lot of pressure on the content team because the content team needs to be able to tell the story about why you have five brands in the sunscreen aisle, why would I buy brand A over brand B over brand Z? And if that's not immediately clear to the consumer, you're justifying the we should all fight for the top spot.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (21:25):

Yeah, no, I completely agree. Completely agree. Do you have any other examples that kind of come to mind?

Jack Lindberg (21:31):

We've done a lot of really good work with a Europe based alcohol manufacturer, especially thinking about work we've done to enable them to think about the different regulations of selling alcohol in different countries. That is a really tricky one, especially because a large number of countries have restrictions about what you can do from retail media in the alcohol category. So those are places where, hey, we've helped them or we've said to them, Hey, let's think about how to direct attention towards best in class content in those markets where, for example, in the US where advertising alcohol is a little bit more tricky, but in places like in Germany where it's more acceptable to advertise alcohol where retail media or paid visibility is going to be more of a lever. So helping them balance how to do that, and they've been very successful at increasing visibility in all of those markets by prioritizing the levers that are available to them rather than saying what I call a lift and shift where you take the strategy from country A and you just plop it in country B and you think it's going to work.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (22:46):

That's never the case because every region is culturally different and has different rules and regulations and yeah, that's a great example. In terms of content and availability, in terms of using digital shelf data to identify new opportunities, how else are you thinking about how brands can do that, whether it's out of stock search rank, what are some of those immediate actions that they can take that would really open up potentially new opportunities because growth is a big focus for brands.

Jack Lindberg (23:20):

Yeah, for sure. So I think the two things you mentioned out of stock, whether that's your own out of stock or competitor out of stock are great places to start. There are lots of ads in retail media that are not inventory aware and being mindful per retailer, which of those ads are not inventory aware and not spending money when you don't have inventory is a great first step to one, optimizing your media performance, but two, really integrating that digital self signal into that media buying process. That being said, if your competitor is out of stock, that's a great time for you to double down, so increase your bids, increase your budgets, maybe competitively conquest, those PDPs with ads. It's a great thing to do. The other thing you mentioned about rank I think is super valuable. I might add though, we've sort of agreed without a ton of evidence in every different permutation that buying retail media increases organic rank. I think it's a little bit of a chicken and egg where having strong sales increases organic rank and maybe retail media leads to sales and maybe it doesn't. So I would be more conscientious there about if you want to increase your rank, buying retail media in every scenario might not be the best approach, but I think it's a useful trigger to think about, is this the place where increasing my ad spend will increase my organic or improve my organic rank?

Lauren Livak Gilbert (24:52):

I feel like I really love that because a lot of times there might be retail media on a skew that is so heavily organically ranked and that doesn't make sense. Why are you spending your money there? So trying to balance the how can I use retail media, when can I use it and when should I turn it on or off? That's a lot of what I'm seeing on the brand side right now.

Jack Lindberg (25:15):

So I think I've seen differentiated philosophies about this from brands, some that are very convinced that having a sponsored placement next to an organic placement of the same product is cannibalization and that they'd rather just have one or the other. I've also heard the opposite where, hey, that paid media real estate on the top of the search is really valuable and I want to have it because I think of it as a zero sum game, and if I don't have it, my competitor will. I think those are both defensible. If it were me, what I would do is try to see and find which products are ranking organically and build the tar paid media strategy to change the S skew mix in the right direction. So for example, if I have a really unprofitable product as my organic rank, high product, I would advertise a very profitable product next to it. That's a reasonable substitute. Another counter example could be something like, I have an organic ranked product that's shampoo and I might advertise conditioner next to it to do a sort of basket building approach or socks and sneakers, what have you.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (26:33):

I love that one. The combo, right?

Jack Lindberg (26:35):

Yeah, the combo where maybe you are implying a virtual bundle where one doesn't exist.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (26:41):

I love that

Jack Lindberg (26:43):

To sort of increase the cross-category penetration. One other thing I would add as when we think about using retail media with digital shelf data is that as we have the sort of proliferation of AI agents doing shopping, the initial reads from the research I've seen about how AI agents shop is they really hate sponsored ads. They try not to buy anything that's advertised. They're just inherently distrustful of sponsored placements. That being said, the study I read from Columbia Business School talks a ton about how badges actually are very strong signals to these AI agents. So like an overall pick or a bestseller or an Amazon's choice badge are really good signals that the agent's going to buy that product. So if you do have a badge, that might be something you might consider as an added bonus to try to gain visibility for that product.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (27:47):

We'll see what happens when ads start getting added to agents and LLMs. I wonder if that,

Jack Lindberg (27:57):

Yeah, it'll be a little bit of a mess.

Peter Crosby (27:59):

So yeah, that's a whole nother episode. We'll have you back for that one. So Jack, let's just close out with a really minor point that I wanted to make sure we raised. Measurement easy, easy to solve. I've seen you write about this a bit and you talk about the need for new approaches and evolving marketing mix models, et cetera. Give us your take on how, because especially to bring these two teams together, what is the method of measurement that they can all agree on? That is good measurement of my work and its impact on this stuff.

Jack Lindberg (28:39):

Yeah, I think a measurement in retail media is a challenge and will continue for the foreseeable future to be a challenge. I spent a lot of time in 2023 on the IAB retail media standards committee and we put together a pretty good document. I think that being said by one criticism, it's a little bit aspirational rather than tactical. Where we hit trouble is really about thinking about the most classic measurement technique we have in media is MMM. It's pretty good for what it's good at and very bad at retail media generally. So MMS are historically built for really broad channels like your MMM level line is radio, not any specific campaign for sparse data sets for large reporting views, so like a quarter or a half rather than a day. Retail media operates on the opposite level where it's super granular, super fast and happens in places all over the map that potentially don't share the common metrics that you need to run mms, which would be like impressions or ad spend where we've been pushing on a new IAB committee thinking about retail media incrementality, God

Peter Crosby (30:08):

Bless you,

Jack Lindberg (30:10):

The IAB and I are tight.

Peter Crosby (30:12):

That's awesome.

Jack Lindberg (30:15):

The model we're pushing to, and this is my personal opinion, not that of the IAPs, is thinking about causality as the core measurement criteria. There are tons of methods that fulfill causality, but basically what that means is I, what would have happened if I had not done X? So X is typically retail media, but that action step could have been an action you took on the digital shelf, a promo, a content shift, a what have you, where the output is usually sales, but it could be units, it could be market share, it could be new to brand, it could be brand recognition. The place where MMM kind of goes awry is that it has one target output, which is sales, and I think there are many other valuable goals that one could aspire to using retail media other than sales

Lauren Livak Gilbert (31:15):

And only instore sales, usually it doesn't usually incorporate online digital sales. That's what I've seen at least both retail media and e-commerce are not really incorporated into mms or they cannot determine the difference between what was an in store attributed versus online attributed sale.

Jack Lindberg (31:34):

That's a big one. The other thing that I've seen, or the two other things I think M'S kind of missed the mark on is once you start aggregating at that super rolled up level like at a week or a monthly or a quarterly basis, you lose the level of granularity to fulfill my favorite West Wing reference, which is a post hoc ergo proctor hawk, which for you Latin scholars out there, which is it came before, therefore it caused it. Basically, the basic fallacy is like if A comes before B, A caused B, and that's not necessarily true, and when you roll this all up, all you get is A happened before B, and you miss the causal link between one and the other. You also miss in typical mms all of the digital shelf metrics, I've yet to find an MMM provider out there who's advertising that they use all of these digital shelf metrics to build their MMM, which if you're an MM provider, call me. I'd love to help you with this.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (32:43):

No, call us both. I'm very passionate about this topic. We have research coming out about this soon.

Jack Lindberg (32:47):

Yes, this is super important. And then I think the last bit is MMM requires you to do really wacky imputation and kind of making stuff up for traditional shopper marketing. If you had an end cap end caps don't have impression metrics, you don't know how many people saw it, which makes it very difficult to put in an MMM or even things like things that do have a spend, like a sampling program. You could sort of reverse engineer the number of units you gave away into a dollar amount and then spread it over like peanut butter a series of days. But the more you sort of manipulate the shopper marketing tactics to fit into the, IT needs to have an impression or a spin metric bucket, the wackier your mm m is going to get. I think we've been doing shopper marketing for substantially longer than I've been alive, and just because it doesn't fit into an MMM, doesn't mean it doesn't work. And I worry with retail media, we go down these rabbit holes of measurement telescoping where we say, here are the things I can measure and I ignore everything else, even if it works, but I don't know how to measure it.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (34:08):

Enter roas.

Jack Lindberg (34:11):

Yeah, enter roas, which even ROAS is not universally defined across retailers. It just becomes a massive can of worms once you start peeling away the layers of, don't get me started on how most retail media networks are not MRC accredited for viewability, so there can reporting ads that were served, but you don't know if anyone actually saw them, and it would be impossible for an ad to have an impact on a customer if they never saw it, which seems like common sense, but it gets really messy. All that said, M can still be fine if you need to do a lot of manipulation to get a traditional MMM to play nice with retail media. At some point it stops being an mm m and it's more of a causal model with MMM vibes, which is fine, and I think that's what we need to do, but also think about much more experimental methods as primary sources of retail media measurement, whether that be like an AB test or a geo test or ghost ads or some sort of synthetic control like experimental or quasi experimental methods. Anything that you can do that's more of a test rather than a post analysis is going to be more causally powerful than a traditional M.

Peter Crosby (35:38):

See, I told you this would be easy. Well, Jack, that makes us definitely want to have you back once the IAB process is further along and you have some of this together with a set of your industry pals in with a little bit of direction that I know everyone is looking for, so I can't wait to, we'll have you back when that happens. If you're up for it,

Jack Lindberg (36:05):

That will be a blast. People smarter than I will be doing the majority of the writing,

Peter Crosby (36:10):

But you say it really well too, so that's very kind of you. No, it's very true. So Jack, we really thank you. A lot of this is super complex, but this, as we mentioned at the beginning, the destruction of that silo can have so much impact on people's top line and bottom line in this period, and so getting better and better at this over time with advice from folks like you is really helpful to our community. So thank you so much.

Jack Lindberg (36:37):

Oh, my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (36:39):

Thanks, Jack.

Peter Crosby (36:40):

Thanks again to Jack for lining up the silo busters for us. The takeaway from this is that having the right organizational design and incentives is critical, so head on over to the resources page at digitalshelfinstitute.org for Lauren's latest report, reinventing the organization for omnichannel success. Just select research on the search dropdown, and it's the first thing there. You'll be glad you did. Thanks for being part of our community.