Accelerating the Always-On Flywheel Across Every Shelf, with Ben Galvin, Sr. Director Omnichannel Retail Sales & Ecommerce at Monster Energy

Transcript

Our transcripts are generated by AI. Please excuse any typos and if you have any specific questions please email info@digitalshelfinstitute.org.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (00:00):

Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, where industry leaders share insights, strategies, and stories to help brands win in the ever-changing world of commerce.

 

Peter Crosby (00:22):

Hey everyone, Peter Crosby here from the Digital Shelf Institute. Winning in the new omnichannel, a shopping journey that careens across the physical, digital, and now agentic shelf, takes a massive cross-functional effort that is continuously measured and optimized, especially when it comes to the beverage category. Ben Galvin with Career Stops at AB InBev, Constellation Brands, and now as senior director omnichannel retail sales and e-commerce at Monster Energy has built an always on flywheel playbook that he continues to refine in order to drive incremental growth and lifetime customer value. Welcome to the podcast, Ben. We are so grateful to have you here. Thank you so much.

 

Ben Galvin (01:05):

Awesome. Thanks for having me today. Really excited to have this conversation.

 

Peter Crosby (01:09):

Well, because you've been in the world of the physical and digital shelf for a while and doing the omnichannel thing, and now you're adding in the agentic shelf to that journey, that, to the, the new omnichannel that we talk about. And, you know, you've described the digital shelf and really the PDP as kind of the connective tissue throughout that omnichannel journey, which I think is totally right. And, and, but I'd love for you to tell us how that's evolved over time and, and, and how much it matters that the organization understands that.

 

Ben Galvin (01:45):

Yeah. I mean, one of the things that I like to tell our organization is the digital shelf is no longer just a product listing. It's the connective tissue to our entire digital ecosystem. Um, you know, it's, it's interesting because we, we've all focused on the role of the digital shelf for the PDP for, for a while. And, um, it really stopped being a place you list product. Uh, it kind of became that message layer that all these other touchpoints around whether, um, it's the retailer in which you're operating or it's Google, and now of course the LLMs, it all reads from. Um, you know, the LLMs really showed up in the last call it year, year and a half. And you know, many times when you think about how we used to call it write for digital shelf or, or write for a product details page, we wrote for a shopper.

 

(02:29):

Well, now you have to write for a shopper, you have to write for a retailer's algorithm, and now you have to write for an, an agent ultimately that may aggregate that information from across many different sources, which is really so different than what we've been living in, in the last call it eight to 10 years. Um, one of the things that I think brands are really focused on promising the retailers, promising the consumers that look for our product is making sure that consistency is there. Uh, one of the big things that we talk about here at Monster is making sure that we're looking at that evolution. So we have a product details page. We, we may have, again, a shelf pla- placement, which is in-store as well as online. And then we have that kind of connective tissue component. Um, internally, we work on a lot of different projects that are focused on not just the person who's reading that PDP and the brand equity and the brand voice that comes across with it, but also and more importantly, um, what does that point of conversion look like?

 

(03:28):

And where is it coming from? You know, one of the things, uh, that we work on constantly is this always on flywheel, whether it's source copy, optimizing for search or the answer engine component, uh, publishing of course, and then measuring that. We, we always wanna, of course, show up on Walmart's search results page for, for energy drinks or monster energy. Uh, but we wanna make sure we're re-optimizing because that, as you talked about, Peter, is that connective tissue that really comes back to a lot of other areas and gets ultimately connected to how people are searching across that type of listing. Um, you know, it's, it's that component that the brand can continue to have that promise or that visibility, if you will, whether you're searching on Google, you're searching on TikTok, or ultimately now searching on an LM. And it all is coming back to, again, how and where you're working within your organization to ultimately connect all of them across this omnichannel journey.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (04:24):

And are you seeing the concept of, like, writing or creating content for the agent or thinking about the agent and your strategy easy for your organization to understand? Or has it been similar to e-commerce, like a lot of education to get there?

 

Ben Galvin (04:37):

Yeah, I think it's a lot of education for all of us because I think Lauren, one of the things you have to realize is not everyone is using an LLM, maybe like we all are. And so you have to take that idea of, well, I am doing a lot of this and I'm thinking of it this way, but that's me search. Like we're actually not doing research on what, how other people are utilizing it. So you almost have to kind of frame it up in a visual way, and that's how we've been doing it here at Monster is a very visual component to show people how things are coming together. But yeah, it's, it's definitely a, an educational, uh, component of our role. And I think a lot of people within this omnichannel digital, uh, e-commerce environment is, is because ultimately it's not everyone's sound of second nature to think that way.

 

(05:20):

And again, depending on where you are in your career or where you are in your life, you may not necessarily be working with LLMs on a regular basis. So you're just not as familiar with them.

 

Peter Crosby (05:31):

Yeah. And I wonder, you know, Monster, uh, you all have built such an amazing brand across years. You've just invested so much in showing up where your consumer is and, and being part of their lifestyle and everything. I'm wondering, do you feel like that gives you an edge in the Agentic shelf, uh, to have that much sort of history or do you, do you sort of. Or is it a, is the shelf a place where sort of upstarts can have more? And like, how do you think about that arena?

 

Ben Galvin (06:02):

Yeah, I think it's really important to realize the strength of your brand. I mean, regardless of where you find products, the strength of your brand still matters. Uh, the strength of how people search still matters. I- if you go on a Walmart or at Amazon and you just type Monster, uh, you're gonna get everything from Halloween to electronic, uh, uh, wires, like all sorts of things, because there's a, a number of different, call it Monster branded things. But I think one of the things that's advantageous to us and Red Bull and Celsius in this category is the energy drink category is still a very heavily branded category when it comes to search, when it comes to that findability of what you're looking for. Um, it's a, a very, call it brand-centric category, which is very helpful for a big brand like Monster within it. Very different than maybe the wine category which starts very retail or brand agnostic.

 

(06:51):

Uh, you start with Chardonnay, you start with Cabernet, red wine. And so the brands don't necessarily resonate as much, but I think the building of a brand is even more important in today's world because of where and how the LLMs will scrape. But I think, Peter, you're exactly right. All the work that's gone into building the M-Claw logo, the Monster brand is even more personified today and helps us in a lot of different ways with the discoverability of our product. The question then becomes within the energy drink category, within the Monster brand family, what type of product are you looking for? 'Cause we have full sugar products that are more juice related. We have, uh, non-carbonated energy products that are like rehab, uh, for hydration. And then of course, we have full sugar and non-sugar products. So it's all across the board. And again, in a portfolio as big as ours, y- you know, you ultimately want to make sure Monster is part of that consideration set.

 

(07:45):

But at the end of the day, like, how do you then continue to move them down the funnel with the d - all the different product offerings that we have within our portfolio? Again, no different than a lot of major brands in CPG Grocery today that have multiple different sub-brands underneath them.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (08:01):

I love that. Brands still matter so much in this world and we need to, we really need to go back to it. And so, uh, Ben, when you look at the major shift in discovery, to your point, some people are using LLM, some aren't. Discovery is kind of happening in culture, and I'm air quoting that, whether that's like a TikTok or through LLM or through a friend. And you actually shared a really awesome study with us from Retail Brew that 35% of consumers are still heading into the physical stores to make their final purchase after researching on their phone. So for Monster, because you're at like convenience stores like a 7-Eleven or I know I took a picture of my husband buying a Monster at a gas station the other day and sent it to you, whether you liked it or not. <laugh> Uh, so there's all these places where the physical stores are really big element of your brand.

 

(08:46):

So how are you thinking about the physical, digital, and agentic shelves all working together since the physical is still so important for you?

 

Ben Galvin (08:54):

Yeah, I mean, that's, it, it's so important to realize, like the role of the physical store is even more important today. And if, if you don't believe it, look at the recent decisions from Kroger, uh, obviously w- winding down their Ocado fulfillment centers and moving towards all the marketplaces. Uh, you know, the, the physical shelf for the store has never really lost its job. It really got a new one in a lot of ways. Um, you know, it's not necessarily where you always win the consumer. Like you said, discoverability, findability happens in culture, happens on your screen. Um, but it's where you ultimately can keep the consumer that you have as well as fulfill that product from an online purchase. Um, you know, one of the big things that we focus on here i- in our space is making sure that, yes, we want to make sure we build out and we create as much visibility to our products, but online, but the physical shelf is where the inventory comes from.

 

(09:45):

You know, in a lot of ways, that in-store shopper is the same type of shopper that puts the pressure on the days of supply on that in-store shelf, just like a consumer that's sitting at home three miles away. Uh, and that's where I believe that store's jobs have really changed. Um, in a lot of ways, they, they don't necessarily convince the consumer to purchase. Uh, maybe they ultimately help confirm purchase behavior. Think about it. You know, you may see a new product on TikTok that you wanna try and you go to 7-Eleven on your way to the train on the way to work. Well, ultimately, in store and the value of in-store is you can check your pack price, you can check your flavor, you can check your can size in our category. And so, yeah, you might have decided that you wanna try that product or a friend had told you about it, but that shelf is really what closes that sale.

 

(10:32):

It's really what's helping you to make the decision to purchase on what flavor to choose or, or what pack size based on the price point that you want to purchase at. Um, it's a great statistic that you shared and, and I think it's really just important to make sure that it reinforces that it's a conversion event, not a discovery event anymore. That, that on, on shelf, in-store experience is still there in a lot of ways. And, uh, the convenience category allows for that grab and go mentality. The grocery category allows for that stock up and save mentality. And, and yeah, you maybe aren't discovering new products in store as much as you did two, three, four, five years ago, um, but you're converting there. And the physical shelf really helps to build that. Um, I think it's also important to realize, and we've talked a little bit about, uh, LLMs and discovery moving in the world of culture.

 

(11:18):

In, in a lot of ways, where you discover products you don't have the ability to check out, or if you do, it's, it's very frictioned. And so I, you know, I don't wanna give you this credit card, or I, I don't know how long it's gonna take me to get there. And so the algorithms can help surface that type of content and culture, of course, can create, create that intent that you're looking to try and purchase that product and it puts it on your list or you put it on your brain to, to get on the way to the train. But retail is what's really capturing it. And I think it's just so important to realize that physical shelf still sits, uh, where all the inventory is and it allows for us to purchase and get the products we're looking for. But at the end of the day, you know, that's where we can try to drive as much conversion as possible, which is really exciting to see.

 

Peter Crosby (12:01):

Yeah. I'd love to, if you don't mind, zoom in on the convenience channel because, uh, you, you've talked about before, it's super important for you, obviously, to, uh, get the Lauren Levak Gilbert family purchase, um, let alone otherwise. But, uh, it's not really the same as traditional grocery. And, and I think t- talk a little bit about that sort of experience before, during, and after the, in the convenience shopper journey.

 

Ben Galvin (12:27):

Yeah. I mean, the convenience channel is still so prominent in so many people's lives, whether it's a daily commute or it's a grab and go component. Um, you know, I've always said in my career, like, the convenience store is not small grocery. Maybe in certain areas like Town Pump in Montana, people maybe treat it that way, but it's a different trip. It's a different consumer. Um, usually younger impulse, uh, and especially in our category, it's cold, it's single serve. You know, the reality is, is if you look at the convenience category, it's still served so important of a purchase, uh, regardless of where the gas prices are today, because it really helps to help the consumer find what they're looking for and get on with their day. It's fascinating as you kind of connect, if you will, the convenience channel with the digital world, as we've been talking about our omnichannel, is that, you know, for the last decade or so, the convenience channel's kind of been a digital dead zone.

 

(13:17):

There's really been no PDPs, there's no ratings and reviews. And in a lot of instances, there's no digital shelf. I, I know Seven Now has launched and there's some other, uh, convenience retailers that run a gamified type of app component. But ultimately, you know, before discovery happens in a lot of ways, uh, in, in off-premise environment, you know, the convenience channel never really kind of played in that. And I think it's so important to realize that this is where the third-party marketplaces have come in. So, uh, the DoorDashes, the Uber Eats, and so forth, um, that have helped over-index with that younger digitally native shopper. Uh, and in a lot of ways, they can help them win on speed, assortment, closed-loop data with regards to audience targeting. Like, that's the convenience consumer. And if you think about the role of the convenience channel, that convenience channel is now reachable with a real digital shelf.

 

(14:04):

It may be as you get your tie order delivered to your house for dinner, and you can get a plus up on DoorDash and their Double Dash component from 7-Eleven. Um, you know, one of the things that I've always said throughout, uh, the time, especially during COVID, is convenience isn't really des - defined as a store down the street from you. It's how fast can something be delivered to me? Like, that's convenient. And so, you think about this, like, repeat and loyalty component that's so critical to the convenience channel, um, and with no digital tissue to reinforce it, now the third-party marketplaces help the digital shelf and help the convenience channel personify what people and how people want to shop, especially late night, especially morning, especially those kind of fill-in trips that are immediate. Um, so it brings a level of search. It brings a level of, you know, retail media that the convenience channel never had.

 

(14:51):

And so many grocery CPG brands are so dependent on the convenience channel, not because there are thousands and thousands of them across the country, um, but because it's part of everyone's day, you know, most people go grocery shopping maybe once, twice a week, uh, but you may hit a convenience store four or five times a week. And it's really that idea of the role of the convenience channel being personified with regards to allowing the consumer how and when they want to shop, and then get it to me cold, fast, hot, however you're necessarily shopping. And that impulse pie is just so critical and helps with that chance to convert. And I think the convenience channel's taken advantage of that.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (15:30):

Like the, the example of the DoorDash example that you shared, how do you work through that complexity from a measurement standpoint, right? Because it's in-store, but it's online, but it's quick commerce, but like, h- how have you been able to kind of think about that in your overall strategy and understand its incremental value to your other channels?

 

Ben Galvin (15:53):

Yeah. I mean, it, it's a, it's double counting in so many ways with regards to, again, you can purchase something on DoorDash, uh, from any retailer. Of course, unless you're shopping Dash Mart, their own vertically integrated retailer, it's, it, you know, that retail team's getting credit for it just like call it we are as well. I think where it really comes in for the targeting and measurement component, Lauren, is the incrementality that comes from the trip. Um, so I, I, one of the big things that we work with our retail teams to help realize is that the younger consumer, the urban consumer, um, they're ultimately their choice of purchase or area for conversion may be the DoorDash app. It, let's think if you're getting a late night snack or you're getting some sort of like late night delivery, uh, to your house, a- and in a lot of ways, you're not necessarily shopping your, call it retailer of choice, you're shopping based on your brand and price.

 

(16:40):

So it could be coming from anywhere from a 7-Eleven to a Dollar General to, uh, you know, a liquor store down the street, depending on what you're purchasing. And then, and in a lot of ways, those consumers are completely agnostic to what retailer they choose. They just want the right pricing, want it delivered in 30 minutes. And so how we look at it from a third-party marketplace and valuation standpoint is, is certainly based on share and sales lift from that standpoint, but then what's the incrementality that you can bring back to that retailer? 'Cause just like in my example of a consumer shopping online late at night and they need a snack up, whether it's snacks and an energy drink and a pint of ice cream, like, of course, yeah, the, the consumer may get it from the local 7-Eleven, but they may not know where that 7-Eleven is.

 

(17:22):

And so that is incrementality that we can share and show that that consumer ultimately is helping, of course, our 7-Eleven team and buying a monster product. But that's where we look at it from a third-party marketplace standpoint, because of the incrementality that we can have, not just to those retailers, but to the share component of where the growth is coming from. Um, that's, I think, one of the big things. And then the other area that we've really tried to h- h- hone in and, uh, around is how do you ultimately then a - build audience targeting against and with it? No different than you would on a Walmart Connect or a KPM with regards to Kroger, but it's that idea of how do you then take that audience set that you've built within the third-party marketplaces and be able to reuse that in the future against certain campaigns, innovation, and so forth, knowing that in a lot of ways, those consumers aren't necessarily concerned about what retailer they're shopping, but they're more brand-centric, and they can kind of build it from there.

 

(18:14):

Um, the marketplace that sticks out to me that started all of this was Drizly. If you worked in the alcohol industry pre - COVID and during COVID, your, your basket, if you will, started with the brands and started with the products you were gonna buy. And then at checkout, it would tell you what retailers, if you will, um, would be available to purchase and you build the basket. So it really was brand-led and then retailer second. And in a lot of ways, you know, there's options to do that on the marketplaces. And I think it's just so important to realize that in those types of impulse purchase occasions, the consumer doesn't care what, where they're, it's coming from, as long as it's a good price and they're getting it the way they want in a, call it timely manner. And so it's how do you then build out planning, how you build out structure of audience targetings incrementality to capture those consumers, because it's a very valuable shop.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (19:00):

And how do you get cross-functional alignment and the right

 

Ben Galvin (19:03):

Analytics - Correct.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (19:03):

To be able

 

Ben Galvin (19:04):

To. Absolutely. I mean, because that, that behavior is not gonna stop. I was recently talking to a head of a retail media network a few weeks ago, and, um, I live in downtown Chicago, and one of the big components that we talked about was the role of media and retail media with regards to shopping. And one of the things I explained to him is, um, you know, where I live, there's, like, four major grocery stores all around me that all have their own app. Um, I don't have any of them on my phone, but I have DoorDash and Instacart, and I have shopped those retailers, all four of them, but via Instacart and DoorDash. So that's a big component of, you know, I necessarily. I wanna shop that retailer, and I'm on board with doing it, but, like, I don't need their app. I'm just gonna shop it on Instacart or DoorDash.

 

(19:45):

And so, I think that's just understanding of how the generationally we want to shop, but how we wanna interact. And then, ultimately, too, in some instances, you go into the shopping and behavior, and you don't know what you want, so you start in that marketplace environment.

 

Peter Crosby (19:59):

And so, Ben, when you, when you think about all of these touchpoints, these options for the consumer, the sort of convenience number one, et cetera, how do you think about and nurture consumer loyalty in this really kind of crazy, uh, noodle of, of a consumer journey? Um, what, how do you think about that and, and your, you know, how to nurture that throughout this kind of -

 

Ben Galvin (20:28):

Yeah, I mean, I think it's all around h- how you define loyalty. I think from a standpoint of, "Well, this is my brand, and this is what I purchase," and, and, and that component, I think, is so important. And so from there, you just wanna make sure you're showing up and providing value, uh, against that, call it loyal consumer, uh, that's building it out. Um, but I think when it comes back to the findability of a lot of products as a brand, you wanna make sure that not only i- is, are you serving your loyal customers, um, but you're also defining how loyalty is going to evolve, uh, for that need state over the either lifespan of that, uh, consumer that you're referring to, or the, the loyalty within the retailer network that you're trying to serve your products through. Um, I know, especially if you go back to the convenience channel, um, there's a lot of loyalty component to how and where we know some of our brand is shopped, um, against certain categories within convenience, and we know that how different that is with regards to somebody that maybe shops at Costco or a Walmart or a grocery store.

 

(21:29):

And so one of the things that when we look at the incrementality component, we also look at the loyalty rating component of how are we building lifetime value for that consumer? And o- one of the ways that you can obviously do that is making sure that there's value all along, uh, the purchase occasion, call it set, for that retailer for your products. Obviously, working in consumer product beverage, you have a lot of different pack sizes, you have a lot of different package configurations, and then within them, you have a lot of different prac - prices. And so I think it's important to realize that where c - where loyalty comes in and where you want to re- reward loyalty for consumers that purchase your product on a more regular basis, you also wanna make sure that you can, uh, ensure they get value as either they buy larger pack sizes or they buy, uh, your products on a more regular basis, and whether it's thr- through promotion or frankly, it's just through the offerings that we have across the board.

 

(22:22):

I think that's a big component of how loyalty can be served to those consumers. And then we can double click into the retailers in which they, we know they're shopping. So we can ultimately tie back to that straight, um, consumer value that they're looking for wherever they wanna shop, because as they, uh, go from college to early adulthood to, uh, maybe into their career, their preferences may change, not necessarily on your brand, but how they shop your brand. Yeah. And it's really important just to show up for them wherever they want to find you.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (22:53):

And in order for them to find you, you need to make sure that your content is machine readable. Y- you

 

Ben Galvin (22:59):

Need to focus on

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (22:59):

The physical, digital, identic shelf. So let's talk a bit about the machine readable concept, whether it's from an LLM, using social sites, like, how are you focused from a AEO insert acronym here, answer engine optimization element around your content?

 

Ben Galvin (23:17):

Yeah, I mean, y- you can't optimize what you can't measure in a lot of ways. And in a lot of, uh, well, a lot of ways, a lot of those metrics have changed. Um, you know, share of search is still real, I think, with regards to retailers and regards to, uh, findability within retailers, uh, search results pages. Uh, we all know about, like, the 10 blue links that pop up with Google and the rec - one recommendation. Um, you know, one of the things that I think's been really, um, interesting over the last call it year or so is that measurement of the findability and how we track, uh, because in a lot of ways, you think about, uh, a first results page of a Walmart or a Target, and you get 10 or 20 results. If you think about searching in Google, you may get, like I said, 10 blue links, but in a, in a LL- LLM environment, you may just get one recommendation or two.

 

(24:03):

And so ultimately, the, the shelf is ultimately, it is squeezing a little bit. So one of the things that we, and I know a lot of brands have continued to do, is build the visibility metrics a- across how we look at our products, um, not necessarily against all prompts that are related, uh, but j- just the same way we track share of shelf is building a scoreboard against how we track our visibility on answer engine, um, prompt responses. So if you think about putting prompts into LLMs, again, we don't wanna show up necessarily when you prompt anything. We want to ultimately show up when you prompt things related to energy drinks. And so it's really important to realize that we wanna win those words or those prompts that people ultimately normally put into LLMs, and we don't necessarily are, are worried about everything else. So if you look at, like, what's the best sugar-free energy drink, we wanna make sure Monster's near the top.

 

(25:00):

If you're asking for natural energy drinks, we, if you're asking for, uh, strawberry energy drinks, we wanna make sure that there's a findability component there knowing that our cons - our products are relevant within those spaces. Um, and it's not just our flagship products. If you think about, again, our long tail of products, you think about our sub-brands of products like Bang or NOS or, uh, Rain, you know, this is where we have, call it fast growing in that sugar-free lane or other areas of product related that small challengers can almost outkick their coverage in their findability. And so the way we measure a lot of this findability is around the visibility ranking within it. And if there's a gap that we can close, we are looking to try to build that out, especially around the citations in which h- how our products are being citated to be in those answer, um, engine responses.

 

(25:53):

You know, i- it's, it's really important to realize that you, you can't necessarily boil the ocean, so where we can ultimately pick those phrases, understand where that consistency, um, is across whether it's paid or earned, um, that's where we can then see that content. Um, I think everyone's doing things a little differently as we all weed this out. Consistency is the optimization that I see as a big component. Um, you know, one of the big things as you've seen, uh, Neil, I know Nielsen IQ's, uh, reported on this as well, that, you know, 42% of shoppers have used some sort of LLM for shopping. Um, you know, that's a big number, and it's only gonna continue to grow. So if you see people's prompting, what's the best sugar-free energy drink, I would guess that every sugar-free energy drink product is going to try to show up there in the, call it listing response, that's, you know, five or six options.

 

(26:46):

Um, one of the big areas that from a measurability standpoint is how, again, no different than share of search, is our vil - visibility, I'll call it share, and how we ultimately show up against the specific prompts within it. Um, you know, the agent will continue to give you a few options, and as we optimize against those specific rankings or, or, you know, search results, pages, if you will, for LLMs, um, it's all about being part of the answer. Uh, the answer is all decided by words. It's very, uh, not as visual as we would all expect. And so it's important that because of the words that are being part of that kind of answer or visibility of there, uh, we wanna make sure we're disciplined to say that everywhere that we are putting external content. And I think we're all in kind of the early stages or the early innings of that, but, um, it is no different, again, than how you've measured your share of search in the past.

 

(27:37):

It's just having a different framework in the visibility component.

 

Peter Crosby (27:41):

And, and Ben, uh, we, I don't want you to give away any, um, secrets, but, uh, did you, did you sign up with a different service than you've been using to do this measurement? Is it, has it come from a. I just loved how you've sort of brought this into your organization, and what have you found works for you guys without -

 

Ben Galvin (28:01):

Yeah, I mean, I think just like a lot of us have hired that share of search measurement or that product optimization, uh, marketing technology partners, we did the same in this. Uh, we started this process, uh, about a year ago, uh, where we started to RFP and look at a lot of different companies across this kind of AEO, GEO space. Uh, we did hire Profound. Uh, they have been our partner, um, throughout this journey to find visibility and citation and fact checking, uh, among other things, to get a better perspective of where and how, uh, we show up in the, call it areas of focus that we want to focus in. Uh, again, just like when you work on your product details page content on kroger.com, you have those keywords, you have those areas of call it search results pages that are important to you.

 

(28:51):

It's no different than that strategy that we've taken in the LLM world when it comes to visibility, and Profound has helped us to do that. It's also helped us to get a better perspective of our citation weighting, uh, or our product content within other citations that we know our product comes to life in. Uh, you know, it's, it's, um, it gives us that ability, Peter, to aim before we shoot in a lot of ways. Yeah. Um, you know, it's really important to get a better understanding on how, uh, the user base within the LLM environment is using LLMs for prompts. Um, and there's no right, right or wrong answer today. And I think it's that discoverability, um, uh, journey that we're all on to get a better handle on how we can improve not just the consistency of external facing content, but ultimately where we can improve our content that is consistent across external services, because then it ultimately will help with our call it prompt answer visibility, uh, against that kind of, uh, prompt structure that is most important to us.

 

(29:52):

And again, every category is gonna be different. Even companies within certain categories may have that approach very differently, but yeah, we have built a pretty extensive. Of approach to LLM visibility and the call it universe or ecosystem that is most important for us to show up in a very consistent, but also very prominent way.

 

Peter Crosby (30:12):

And so it sounds to me like none of this happens or works without a bunch of teams being involved to make. 'Cause once you find out what's going on, then somebody needs to do something about it. And that can be spread across several teams, I would imagine. So how. This entire new omnichannel journey, who are the teams that you are really collaborating with to bring all of this to life across all of that?

 

Ben Galvin (30:39):

Yeah, we, we joked when we started on this journey as well as a couple other ones that, um, you know, sometimes these projects are a lot larger than you think. And the joke that I made when we started on this RFP, um, is the role of visibility within LLMs kind of breaks the organizational chart. Yeah. Uh, nobody really owns it. Um, we have individuals as part of this process from corporate comms, uh, from media, from web dev, uh, marketing. Uh, everyone has been synced in on where and how we're looking at this data. Um, and it's, it's really fascinating because, you know, in a lot of ways that the digital shelf, if you will, can produce 10 to 20 results based on your search result. Um, but the algorithm will pick one or two within that LLM. Um, w- we still have a big proponent on the brand team and the brand owns the words and the messages.

 

(31:29):

Um, our digital commerce team has been building the pipes for a lot of this across not just LLM environments, but across a lot of digital commerce structures. Um, we've been working so closely with our web dev team to understand citation weighting, um, and anything that isn't called retailer or external marketing. Um, and it really works as a conversation in a lot of ways. So again, very collaborative from that environment, but when you talk about teams and people involved, it's everyone from brand to data management syndication. Uh, the product marketing side of it, we've been working so closely to get a better perspective on call it retailer PDP optimization against SEO and AEO, but not breaking one or the other, but, uh, working together within them. Um, that's where we believe of the digital commerce team is that kind of, uh, connective tissue, if you will, across so many of these teams is we're being that collaborative environment.

 

(32:24):

We are ultimately helping the people to come along for the ride. And then in this case, we're trying to build almost a data lake of information that people can feed off of through a tributary component. Um, and then get that idea of, all right, from these touchpoints, um, what can we all work on together that ultimately helps with that visibility? And cross-functional alignment has been so key, uh, within this organization as well as wi- within others that I've talked to about how they're organizing themselves against it. And, and it's not like it's a set it and forget it either, Peter. I mean, that's the crazy thing with this, um, is that some of the decisions that we're actually making right now, w- we would've never made a month ago. And so that's been really fascinating to see some of the areas we've been able to get people involved and get people engaged.

 

(33:11):

And I, I think everyone has this innate interest in it because it, it is talked about a lot of it, but we're also making sure that from a talk track standpoint, we don't call it AI, we call it LLMs because you can use AI for a lot of different things. And I realize that the Clauds and the ChatGPTs is a form of AI, but I think LLM discoverability from a, a messaging and a talk track standpoint is so important to realize because this is a discovery tool and this is an area where we know people are engaging with to make decisions. And so that kind of connectivity has helped bring in other departments, bring in other people to say, "Hey, look, how can I help?" And then we ultimately can then assign support ownership. It's like you build a RACI model against everything. Um, and that's a big component of how we can do it.

 

(33:59):

And so it, it's really not something that I anticipated, uh, but it has been, I've taken on as our digital commerce team, um, has really been that kind of, this is our problem, this is how we need to solve it, everyone get on board and we'll all assign ro - um, roles. And it's a big important component to tie it to.

 

Peter Crosby (34:19):

Yeah, I think that sense of ownership of this is really important to set clearly. And I think we, and Lauren, you can, you are the organization guru here, but it seems to be, it seems to be ending up in, or being grabbed by the e-commerce/digital teams, which is, I think, the right place to be putting it.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (34:39):

I agree. I mean, the digital teams understand the most about the PDP. They've been the change makers in the organization. They're agile. They can move fast and get educated and educate the rest of the org. So I would agree, that's what I've seen across the board at most orgs, that the AEO, GEO component has been adopted by the digital or e-commerce team, but there is like a task force across the entire organization that talks about AI as a whole - Yeah. To make sure there's no duplication of efforts or too many pilots going on. So I think the piece around AEO/GEO definitely lives with digital and e-com, and then that broader task force tries to cover the whole org.

 

Ben Galvin (35:19):

Yeah. And I think you've seen too, and every, every brand I'm sure can see this for themselves or within their category, a lot of the citation component comes with, comes from, excuse me, uh, a lot of the areas the digital commerce team controls. Um, so when you look at, again, a prompt visibility report, um, you obviously wanna make sure you show up in a lot of different ways, just like you did on Google, just like you do on a search results page for a retailer. And in a lot of those ways, the digital commerce team can influence, um, some of the citation component is tied to that area that the digital commerce works on pretty regularly. So I think if they can get a point of view on that end, um, it's something that you can then, uh, evangelize across an organization because teams that are gonna win in this kind of new era, if you will, uh, are gonna the ones that stay true to everything everywhere.

 

(36:05):

Um, you know, being early and often to updating content, but also being consistent across, with messaging across all areas of external facing, um, message, uh, text is gonna be so critical. Um, and so the machine, the shopper, uh, can all ultimately react for the first time. And I, I don't think it's necessarily n - the wrong or the right thing to do, but I think Lauren makes a great point that these teams have kind of grabbed it because they can at least start with where that influence is coming from.

 

Peter Crosby (36:36):

So Ben, I'd love to close. Uh, you've, you have always been, uh, as long as I've known you, just so present to share your knowledge, how you're doing it. Uh, you're just really generous with being, uh, you know, being a sort of just helping people figure it out. And when I went to your LinkedIn this morning again before we talked, I just saw the first word you mentioned below your name is mentor. And I, I'd just love to get your point of view on how you think about being a mentor and, and where you put that energy and, and to, to achieve what, because I think it's so important.

 

Ben Galvin (37:13):

Yeah. I, I appreciate you noticing it. I, I did that purposefully. Um, I've had a lot of, and do have a lot of great mentors in my life, um, but I also believe in, in passing it on. Um, mentoring to me is something that is, is something I've never shied away from. I make the time to do. Uh, it doesn't matter to me, um, what your title is, what your role is. I think it's just ultimately helping everyone along this journey. I don't have all the answers. I, I never will. And I think it's really important from, uh, a guiding light with regards to this industry is that w- we ultimately make sure if there's a curiosity, if there's an interest in anything, that you're helping people along because, um, just as we've talked about earlier in the pod, like, you can't do this without many different departments.

 

(37:56):

Well, you, you can't obviously build a successful career and more importantly, be a genuine and authentic person without others around you that make you better. And I do believe that, yes, I've had wonderful mentors that have helped me, but I've had a lot of mentees, um, that have also helped me as well. And so I'm very cognizant of, uh, always engaging with the mentees that I have. I have quite a few again this year, which I'm very, uh, gracious, uh, for. And I always try to make time for them, and I always try to make time to challenge them, but also challenge them to challenge me because I think a mentor relationship is a two-way street. You learn from each other. And yes, there may be something that I'm looking to get out of if I have a mentor myself or if I have a mentee they're looking to get out of, but I, I think there's, uh, opportunity everywhere for development and understanding.

 

(38:43):

And, uh, I think it's so important just to help everyone around you, uh, because we are kind of all on this journey together and, um, this is a, a, a very small industry as a whole. And I think the, the world of curiosity and the area of where people just want to learn from others is so important. And so I take a lot of pride in that and I, I welcome any type of opportunity to be a mentor to somebody and, uh, spend time doing that.

 

Peter Crosby (39:09):

Well, we certainly are grateful that you do it here, uh, you know, with, with our community because we're all just, as we said, just trying to figure it out. And I think - Sure. You know, this moment, uh, invites exploration and experimentation. Yeah.

 

Ben Galvin (39:24):

You

 

Peter Crosby (39:24):

Don't know where the answers are coming from. It's not always from experience. Sometimes it's - That's right. From experimentation. And, and I think also in this more remote environment and sometimes distance caused by electronics and Zooms and things like that, to be able to, to invest time in that human connection, I think is so important. And, uh, anyway, thank you for sharing that point of view with us. We really

 

Ben Galvin (39:48):

Appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. It's a great, it's a great point to make, and I, I encourage everyone in their career to have a mentor, but also encourage having mentees as well, because it doesn't matter in what point you are in your career, you can always teach something to someone, and you never know what you'll learn from them as well.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (40:03):

And a huge thank you to you, Ben, for everything you give back to the community. I mean, no matter what I ask you, you're like, "Yeah, sure." And I'm like, "Thanks so much, Ben." <laugh> No, thank you.

 

Ben Galvin (40:12):

I love that, what you guys have built with the Digital Shelf Institute, and I love the, the, the focus that you've had across this kind of evolving space, uh, pre - COVID, during COVID, and now we live in this new world, of course, um, of agentic commerce. But, uh, I just love the education that you give back and you provide to others, uh, because it's a l - it really is a ability for people to, whether they get an email in their inbox or there's a, um, a video that they can watch, like, it really helps everyone to, to be better and, and get a better perspective. And in a lot of ways, it's, it's very digestible. So, uh, certainly, uh, I, I use a lot of it myself.

 

Peter Crosby (40:49):

Thank you. Well, it's a blast to be able to do it, and certainly to do it with people like you. So, Ben, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it.

 

Ben Galvin (40:56):

Yeah, thank you for having me. Really appreciate it.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (40:59):

Thanks so much, Ben.

 

Peter Crosby (41:00):

Thanks again to Ben for sharing his wisdom. More wisdom is always on tap at digitalshelfinstitute.org. Stop by and become a member. Thanks for being part of our community.