From Driving Ecommerce at Three Distinctive Brands Comes a Lot of Wisdom, with Wendell Venerable, VP eCommerce, Congo Brands

Transcript

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Lauren Livak Gilbert (00:00):

Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, where industry leaders share insights, strategies, and stories to help brands win in the ever-changing world of commerce.

 

Peter Crosby (00:22):

Hey everyone. Peter Crosby here from The Digital Shelf Institute, Reckitt, Red Bull, Congo Brands working across an e-commerce powerhouse to one of the most vibrant brands in the industry. And now at a feisty startup. Wendell Venerable, VP e-Commerce at Congo Brands has amassed a ton of hard lessons and hard fought victories. Wendell joins Lauren Leach Gilbert and me to share generously from his past experience and his view on the future of commerce in the next era. Wendell, thank you so much for joining us. We are so looking forward to the conversation today.

 

Wendell Venerable (01:00):

Awesome. Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

 

Peter Crosby (01:03):

Before we dive in, I have one question that I've just been thinking about as I was prepping for this. You have such an amazing last name as an adjective. Is that awesome or intimidating as you were coming up as a child?

 

Wendell Venerable (01:20):

It's funny, most people don't even know that it's an actual word. A word, yeah, what it means. So my

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (01:26):

Here's vocabulary is fantastic.

 

Wendell Venerable (01:30):

My father is big on names and words and meanings, so he always tried to instill we have a powerful name and we got to live up to it. So I try to, and hopefully I'll instill that same thing in my kids too.

 

Peter Crosby (01:41):

That's awesome. I'm so glad I asked because I just think it's a beautiful last name, but you never know. Sometimes our name's curse us, so I'm glad it has given you inspiration. You have really had such an incredible career that working at all sorts of different organizations across all sizes, large, medium, small, you've had the opportunity to see what works and what doesn't work in each of those settings. And those lessons can really power the decisions that you make sort of at all levels. So before we dive in, I'd love for you to give the listener some details about your different roles and where you sit now.

 

Wendell Venerable (02:21):

Yeah, for sure. So I started my career with Nestle in their leadership development program, and that's where I kind of built my foundation in retail. So I had a few different roles and basically just learned how big complex organizations operate, how products get to shelf, how decisions get made and what scale really looks like. From there I moved to Rect, which is where I really got my foot in the door with the e-comm. And there I had a mix of operator and leadership roles, and that's also where I really developed my expertise in e-comm, both in strategy and execution, so things like price pack architecture, channel strategy, content, media, supply chain, having full p and l ownership, all the unsexy things that really determine whether e-commerce actually works or not.

 

(03:13):

That experience then led me to Red Bull North America where I was brought into lead e-commerce over there. And that was less about taking an established mature playbook and more about driving disruption in the organization, positive disruption to build the channel, develop capabilities and position the brand to win online in a category that was becoming increasingly competitive. And now I'm the VP of global e-commerce at Congo Brands where I oversee both e-com and retailer media. And my focus is scaling systems, teams and capabilities to support rapid growth while still staying disciplined in driving profitable execution. I would say in most of my latter roles, my job's been the same. Build highly functioning teams, develop talent and remove friction so my teams can execute better and faster ultimately to drive results.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (04:12):

What an awesome background. Oh

 

Peter Crosby (04:15):

My gosh. Those brands.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (04:16):

Small, like huge brands, and we're going to dive into it, but I have to ask one question before we do. You started in a leadership development program and I've been spending a lot of time kind of thinking about what those leadership development programs mean in the world that we live in today, because a lot of that work is potentially going away. You probably had to forecast, right? Did you have to forecast in that role or when you first started in one of your roles, right? All of that is probably going to be automated. So you talk about developing talent, how are you thinking about developing future talent who might have more of that work in the beginning stages of their career automated and getting them to learn and understand the nitty gritty like you did throughout your career? I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on that.

 

Wendell Venerable (05:05):

Yeah, I think I try to be hands-on and walk people through the process. I think no matter what the subject matter is, I'm really big on the what, the how and the why, what's required, how do you do it and why do we do it? And just keeping that curious kind of mindset with everything we do all the way down in the weeds, execution all the way up to strategy and try to always answer those questions when I'm coaching and developing people and then take a hands-on approach and walk them through how we do things. With a lot of automation happening today and things being taken off the plate, I don't think it's replacing people. I think it's more understanding that they know how to use those tools. Those tools are only as good as you train them to be. And so you need to have that foundational understanding of how to do it yourself and what questions to ask and what to look at to make sure that the output of whatever automation tools you're using are actually good. So I don't think it goes away. I think the actual scribbling on paper, hands-on keyboard probably goes away to a degree, but you still need to know the ins and outs and make sure that you're effective in using modern tools.

 

Peter Crosby (06:22):

I love that phrase that you said, how we do things because I think that is the different dimension, the sort of extra brain that has to be brought to whatever you're executing in whatever tool, the sort of the context that really needs to be understood and the whys and the reasons and the outcomes need to be captured for that. I think that especially that new person to really get the foundations that are required to be able to get up to a strategy level

 

Wendell Venerable (06:58):

For sure.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (06:59):

So we talk a lot about organizational structures and how people work and the future of work and things like that. And we've gone into a lot of that in some of our past podcasts, but you have experienced in so many different models. So we really want to hear what were the differences from large, medium, small, what did you learn? What did you take with you? So why don't we start with when you were at a large organization, what are opportunities, I'm going to call 'em, opportunities that you could have learned and things that you pulled through the rest of your experiences.

 

Wendell Venerable (07:31):

So probably the most formative model I was in was at Recit where e-commerce was set up as its own business unit and it stood alone in the organization. It was awesome. The model was fully in-house and pretty siloed by design. We had our own e-commerce sales team, legal team, performance marketing team, supply chain team, a data and automation team, all that sat within this e-comm business unit. I think most importantly, we had full p and l ownership. So that structure and autonomy made us incredibly agile. We were scrappy, decisive and accountable in a way that I honestly haven't seen at that same level since. And because of that, from an execution standpoint, it worked. We moved fast, we understood the numbers deeply, we chased opportunities relentlessly, and we operate at e-comm, like a real business, not as a support function, a lot of organizations do. The downside to that is that autonomy that drove our execution and agility also kind of made us isolated.

 

(08:45):

Because we had that full p and l ownership, we could clearly show where the growth was coming from, but that also created tension because we didn't bring people along in the journey. And one, to stress the importance of the brick and click retailers and secure more resources to grow that business. We took the syndicated online sales data from a lot of those brick and click retailers, and we translated it into a p and l that showed offline versus online p and l customer by customer. And while it worked and financially it made sense and it secured us more resources organizationally, it created tension. And it eventually started to feel like a zero sum game because instead of pulling people in, it turned into conflict around ownership, especially because bonuses and apps were tied to where growth was at. So I'd say the pros were pretty clear from an e-comm perspective. I mean, we all developed expertise rapidly, got financial acumen, we had speed and agility and best in class execution, but the cons were equally as real, too, very limited collaboration. We had difficulty driving. And that internal conflict I've mentioned because the model wasn't paired with the right governance and incentive. So I think the big lesson was that autonomy is great, but without alignment, it eventually breaks. And so if you're going to scale an e-com business successfully, you need both ownership and integration.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (10:17):

I think you make a really good point around incentives, and we've talked a lot about that. What gets measured gets managed. So if the in-store team had in-store numbers and your e-commerce team had e-commerce numbers, then you are pitted against each other and you're trying to fight for really the overall business. Do you think if there would've been shared goals put in place that it would solve that issue? Or do you think there still would've been tension? I'm just curious.

 

Wendell Venerable (10:45):

I think it's a tricky one because yeah, ideally shared goals would remove tension. But then think about it from an e-comm perspective. If you are driving all the growth and then your bonus doesn't come as you think it should because the total account isn't growing, that's a difficult situation to be in too. So I don't know what the right answer is, but I think overall people need to realize we're all on the same team and we should all have the same goal, which is to push this brand forward and do the right thing for the consumer. And so if you drive that kind of collaborative message and that's truly your intention with everything you're trying to push, that should solve all. I don't think the bonuses and the financial incentives should really be a decision making factor when it comes to managing a brand. You truly should be doing what's right for the consumer, but I know that's idealism versus reality,

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (11:51):

Human nature versus Yeah, no, totally get it.

 

Peter Crosby (11:53):

Exactly. Yeah, it's a really tricky balance. But I mean, hearing your story record is renowned for having grown e-commerce geniuses the way that that pod has spread out into the world and been such so influential sort of figuring this out. And I love the fact that you can have that experience, be so silently successful at your role, but then also know, oh, there's a lot of cross-functional collaboration and conversation that needs to happen for the rising tide to lift all boats and get the right results. And those lessons are hard. And then solving the marathon particularly hard, but it's a lot, talking to people is just like an investment. It's much easier to sit with your team and make some decisions, but it's the other part that's tough.

 

Wendell Venerable (12:57):

And translating, you got to speak in a language that people understand and that resonates with them, and it's like typical sales, what's in it for me? So trying to speak this language that's been foreign to most in the industry for a long time in a way that they can digest, understand, and see the benefit of

 

Peter Crosby (13:16):

Wait until you try AgTech commerce, that's going to be a whole nother kettle of fish.

 

Wendell Venerable (13:22):

Yeah, I'm sure we'll get to that.

 

Peter Crosby (13:24):

Well, so I, we've seen the large company happening. And tell me about the medium size lessons, the takeaways that you had from working at Red Bull.

 

Wendell Venerable (13:38):

Yeah, so obviously used my experience in learnings at rect when I joined Red Bull. Red Bull was structured a little differently where e-commerce sat within the sales organization rather than it being its own standalone unit. So that immediately changed the way the business worked. There wasn't full end-to-end ownership across all the different functions that make up e-comm. And there wasn't a clean p and l view the way that I was used to managing at record. But what we did have was a lot more of a collaborative environment. And commercially the organization was very receptive to change. So there was a really large appetite to build the e-comm channel, develop the capabilities and work towards a competitive advantage online. And a lot of that meant having to bring senior leaders on board, pitching to the board, securing resources, investment in headcount rather than just executing autonomously. And so one of the big positives from that was that we did expand the team. We did expand investments and we built dedicated e-comm resources and cross-functional teams, which helped embed digital thinking more broadly across the business. But where it was harder versus direct, it was speed and focus. So Red Bull's a very brand-led company, which is one of its biggest strengths. It's probably one of the coolest brands in the world,

 

(15:09):

But e-commerce is obviously inherently product and benefit led. So online you can't just go with the typical route of reinforcing your brand love. You're really answering for the consumer, why should I buy this right now? And we needed to evolve our content and creative from people that see it or saw it at the time. And their takeaway was like, oh yeah, that's Red Bull to deploying content and creatives that let a consumer realize, oh, I need a Red Bull to fit this usage occasion, or I should buy Red Bull instead of buying another energy brand. And that shift towards functionality benefits and conversion took longer from a brand and marketing perspective than it did commercially. And I would say the reality is that online is a great equalizer. The size and share of your brand doesn't matter the way it doesn't store. It's not a set mod that the buyer gives you because of the strength of your brand, the algorithm decides, and that forces even the strongest brands to think differently about how they're showing up online. And so the pros there from a digital transformation standpoint was like it was very collaborative, a lot of positive disruption, and there was a constant desire for evolution. But the cons were it was slower. It took a lot longer to execute in the way than I was used to. And that kind of brand first mindset, it took time to chip away to meet the needs of e-comm com in both models. Like I said, that influence and integration is just as important as ownership and it just comes to life differently at different organizations.

 

Peter Crosby (16:55):

I love that you had team members embedded out into the organization because to your point, I can imagine that just them being exposed to the day-to-day of what it takes to create growth online must have helped when you were having the higher level conversations because it wasn't as much of a lift, I would imagine.

 

Wendell Venerable (17:17):

And they were able to help drive education throughout their orgs and how it rose from the bottom up. And so I think, yeah, that was hugely beneficial.

 

Peter Crosby (17:28):

I'm interested in the evolution of brand marketing, their work. And did you find that they were, if they writing creative brief, did it evolve the way creative briefs got written or how campaigns were planned or how did that end up working for you to be able to really get a connection there?

 

Wendell Venerable (17:52):

Yeah, so I think before I left, I didn't get it to exactly where I wanted it to be, but we were continuing to chip away and make progress. I think that organization will continue to be brand led as they should. It's worked and it's their biggest strength

 

Peter Crosby (18:12):

For sure.

 

Wendell Venerable (18:13):

But we did, like I said, we embedded e-commerce dedicated resources into those teams. So they did start to make e-comm specific briefs both for core everyday content as well as a e-commerce content that we could deploy that's kind of pulling down from our national pillars at relevant times throughout the year. So if there's a national pillar focused on one thing in, let's just say June, obviously they're going to make the best in class advertising out of home assets and all that stuff. Now how does this actually come to life at retail digitally? And that needs to look slightly different. The messaging can be the same and the pillar can be the same, but how it comes to life at retail needs to be personalized. And so our person started making briefs like that and just through iteration after iteration and test and learns and results just continue to chip away to get more and more in line with what we deemed as best class from an e-comm perspective.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (19:16):

So now Wendell, you're at more of a startup environment, so I feel like all these build on each other because there's elements of each of them that you need to be successful wherever you are. So we'd love to dive into this environment where you hopefully are a little bit more agile, right? Because you're in a smaller environment. So we'd love to hear the pros and cons of this model.

 

Wendell Venerable (19:40):

Yeah, it's funny, whenever I have conversations with people, I always joke, this wasn't intentional, but I kind of started at one of the biggest CPGs you could be at. And I've just gotten smaller and

 

Peter Crosby (19:50):

Smaller and smaller time. Next will be you in a garage with your kids. Hey,

 

Wendell Venerable (19:55):

Maybe I'll make the next Amazon. Who

 

Peter Crosby (19:57):

Knows? There you

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (19:58):

Go. We knew you first. Don't forget us. Yes, exactly.

 

Wendell Venerable (20:02):

But yeah, the startup environment is a completely different muscle, and honestly, it's a bit humbling. The reality is you're trying to build a plane while you're flying it. So there's far less structure and process than in large organizations and things are constantly changing even sometimes daily. So the benefit of that is agility is a huge advantage. Decisions get made fast. Ideas move quickly. We identify an opportunity, we act on it. But the trade off is there's also a lot of ambiguity. So you don't always have perfect data, perfect systems, perfect processes or resources. So you're kind of just making progress as you go. One thing I've enjoyed though is being extremely hands-on, again, across lot of the execution, whether that's retail, media content and creative development, pressure testing, pricing, promos, all the things that we do in e-comm, it's continued to keep my skills sharp and keeps me very close to what's truly driving results.

 

(21:04):

And I believe that makes me better as a leader. It keeps me up to date with executional trends, helps me spot what's working or what's not working before it shows up in a report. And it enables me to continue to drive impact without waiting on layers and layers of process and approval. So the other thing I would say is it's helped strengthen my muscles when it comes to change management, especially in such a fast paced environment. So when everything's constantly evolving, flaherty becomes key, and we won't have all the answers at times, but providing people clear direction and priorities is a must in this environment. So the last thing I'll say is for me personally, it's about being disciplined and focusing on what I can control, driving what I can control, and building just enough structure and process to unlock scale where it makes sense without burning energy on things that just aren't solvable yet. And so that balance is what I'm focusing on.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (22:15):

If you could take 2026 Wendell in startup land and transport back to Wreck it knowing that you're inside a large organization and there are some constraints, what would you do differently? Because I think that's a question a lot of big companies want to be small, small companies want to be big, and there's always some guardrails that you have to work within. But I'm wondering, what would you do differently now knowing this environment in a big company?

 

Wendell Venerable (22:48):

I would say at Wreck we were doing it, we were, that e-comm business unit was basically a startup. I think the thing there was we just needed more cross-functional collaboration. We needed more transparency, we needed more education so people knew what we were doing as opposed to just thinking we were just going rogue and stealing everyone's business. So that's what I would've tried to focus on. And there's a balance because everyone I've seen where it turns into your e-comm, people just turn into trainers basically as opposed to actually executing their business. And my problem with that is like, alright, well, so like everyone knows e-commerce is going to be a huge part of commerce moving forward. And so you want your e-comm team to spread that knowledge to make the whole organization better, but it's usually one way. And those e-comm people aren't being taught the ins and outs of brick and mortar retail. And so they're essentially coaching themselves out of a job one day if they're not getting the return training. So trying to balance that, developing e-comm people to go into brick and mortar one day and vice versa, and just making sure everyone is not dangerous when it comes to execution, but dangerous enough to know this is the strategy, what we're trying to accomplish and why we're doing the things we're doing.

 

Peter Crosby (24:32):

That makes perfect sense. And I don't know if my lesson from the world of tech applies here, but one of the startup lessons that I learned is sort of, there's always shiny object syndrome at a startup where sometimes it's the last person the CEO talked to or the last bit of data that came in or something a competitor did that puts everybody into cycles twirling and whirling. And I'm wondering, does that happen in commerce as well? Does that sound familiar? And is part of what you're able to bring the discipline and focus that you have to learn at the larger companies, if any of that makes sense?

 

Wendell Venerable (25:15):

Yeah, I think it's different brand by brand and the maturity of the brand and what stage they're at in their life cycle. But yeah, that does happen to a degree. And sometimes it's something you can chase after and quickly action and see the results. Sometimes it's like I said, don't burn energy on things that aren't solvable yet. And so yeah, I keep saying it, it's like most things in life are about balance and picking and choosing when you can and when you can't.

 

Peter Crosby (25:46):

Must be the same when you're raising kids. I'd imagine

 

Wendell Venerable (25:50):

There's no balance there. Whatever they say, whatever they say goes,

 

Peter Crosby (25:56):

They're in charge. Got it. Like the shopper. Yeah. Okay, I got it. So there's a couple of things that I've been thinking about that take us to our last question. And the top question is, where do you think growth is coming from as we add a new shelf to this equation, physical, digital, and now ag agentic, where will the growth come from? Because generally we aren't getting more consumers given birth rates and everything. I mean, so it's all going to, well, I'll let you answer the question rather than me pres answering it. So I'm wondering where you think growth coming from, what the competitive set looks like. We know that when you went from physical to digital, the competitive set went from the people who fit on the shelf to anybody that could go in. What do you think of when you think of the competitive set that's going to come out of conversations and therefore as we enter this next era with those things kind of being up for somewhat of grabs, are you thinking differently about it or is it really expansion or where's your mind thinking at for that? Does that make sense?

 

Wendell Venerable (27:14):

I haven't really thought about it in the lens of the competitive set with the rise of a EO or GEO, whatever you want to call it these days. I think we're picking a, it's an acronym here. We're picking a EO. Okay. Yeah, that's what I'm picking. Yeah, same. I think the competitive set will continue to grow just due to the digital nature of commerce. I think as a EO evolves, we'll see what their shelf looks like, if I could call it that. From what I've seen, for the most part, they're not shooting out some expansive and exhaustive list of products whenever you're querying it. So it's more about how do you get your items to show up at those queries in my opinion. But all in all, I don't think too much is going to fundamentally change from where I focus. I think at the end of the day, the goal is still the same.

 

(28:16):

Show the shopper the right product with the right message at the right moment in their journey. And the framework to do that doesn't change either. It's still going to be about driving quality traffic, converting that traffic, getting shoppers to buy more and ultimately driving repeat purchase. The thing that will change is how many inputs we now have to optimize against. So with a EO, I think while executionally it'll be different, but how we should approach it shouldn't be too different from how we first thought about SEO years ago. I think first we need to understand how do we define success? How do we measure it? What execution can we drive that influences the outcomes? And by how much? So then we can actually start to optimize towards the end result.

 

(29:08):

There's not going to be an exact science to it right out the way, right out the gate. And I know a lot of people are rapidly trying to develop tech and tools to help in this space, but ultimately we could just test and learn. We can test fail and iterate because nothing we're doing is going to set off any nukes. So for me, the bigger risk at this moment in time isn't the experimentation with a EO. It's getting distracted and I think it's easy to complain about what's not working or not staying ahead of the curve or focus on the shiny things as you mentioned. But for me, I'd rather focus on what is working and fuel that. I think part of that comes from the stage where we're at, where I'm currently at, but the reality is there's never going to be a perfect organization with the perfect structure, resources and capabilities.

 

(30:07):

So I would say no matter where you're at, you should focus on maximizing the execution that's in the areas you can currently control instead of focusing or being distracted so much by the things that you can't control or that might be coming down the line. So if a EO is like 10 to 15% of the opportunity, but I can't say I'm capturing the other 85% with best in class execution, then right now I need to focus on closing that gap on the 85% while I still plot and build for the future, which would be a EO in this case. And I think the best way to do that is to stay focused on relentlessly executing the fundamentals, what's going to win no matter what. And to do that, you got to develop your people, you got to develop capabilities, and you got to remove friction in the org so those teams and capabilities can execute at a high level.

 

Peter Crosby (31:08):

Lauren, I think we should insert an applause machine after that is my applause. Exactly. That was amazing. Sorry Lauren, I think you were going to say something.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (31:20):

No, I mean I completely agree. I mean the fundamentals still matter so much and they're driving A-E-O-S-E-O still matters. Everything that we've been doing for the past 30 years in e-commerce is still super relevant and it's slight tweaks and test and learns that will get you to that next stage until it's really figured out. But that's what I wanted to ask you about. I feel like we always say test and learn and I'm fully behind that, but the reality of testing and learning, especially in the three different types of structures that you've been in, like a large organization, a medium size and a small, is very, very different. It can be easy in a startup environment to be like, Hey, Sam, go change this image and then in two weeks, let's go look. But at record it's probably like, okay, let's build the plan. Let's see the metrics that we're going to solve, then let's have 17 people get involved. So how do you think about test and learning in those different environments when it's changing so rapidly around ai?

 

Wendell Venerable (32:22):

Yeah, I think at the bigger orgs you just got to have the relevant stakeholders involved and aligned to your point, you say, Hey, this is what we need to solve for, this is what we're going to do and this is how we're going to track it. And then you just align up front like this is going to be a very fluid and agile process, so who are the stakeholders and what's the work stream we need to put in place to make sure that we don't lose agility and execution? Those people need to be empowered and enabled to make decisions and make them fast. Again, nothing like changing your image or tweaking your copy with certain words and answers to queries. Most people wouldn't even notice in the org. You could probably just do it and no one would ever notice. You shouldn't do

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (33:14):

That, ask or forgive.

 

Wendell Venerable (33:16):

Yeah, you shouldn't operate that way. But nothing we're doing in regards to this topic is foundationally going to set off any alarms or like I said, set off a nuke. So

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (33:28):

I mean, I think that makes a ton of sense. And the reason I bring that up is because if anyone's listening to this and panicking about a EO or what's changing, the best place to start is one, do you have the fundamentals before you're even talking about ai? And then two, what are you going to try? Take your top skews, try something, see if it works, and then kind of pivot from there.

 

Peter Crosby (33:47):

I think Go ahead, Wendell. Sorry,

 

Wendell Venerable (33:50):

I'm going to say how I started with it. I just started going to different OMS and asking it questions about the categories I was interested in, what are the best products? Alright, how did you come to that conclusion? Alright, where did you get that information? What were you looking at? And then from there I was like, alright, well let me just start tweaking things. And it's not a very efficient or sustainable process for me to be doing that

 

Peter Crosby (34:14):

Every, but this is the right stage to do that.

 

Wendell Venerable (34:16):

That's all I can do at this point until more tech comes. So yeah, just start doing that and then based on the results, start screenshotting stuff and whoever you need to go get approvals from to show why, hey, this is important when I'm on there, this is what I'm seeing. Probably get a few different examples, personalized, what I'm seeing will be different than what you two are seeing. And let's see, can we try to aggregate this and understand where we need to improve?

 

Peter Crosby (34:43):

I think that's what's interesting is that if you think about the amount of control a brand has over the shopping journey, physical shelf high, digital shelf, less so ag agentic shelf. So it's in some ways a new, not a new, but in order to win a conversation where the entire shopping journey or a lot of it certainly up to purchase in the future, maybe more of that, they're going to show you three options at the end of the conversation. And that conversation is going to cover kind of every stage of the consumer lifecycle with the product, all the questions they have, and then the engine goes out and looks for validation of what they've found out from the brand. So that's where you start to lose control.

 

(35:48):

I do believe that the LLMs will want the best, most reliable data and that's going to still come from the brands or the PDP on the retailer site. So if that's true, and that does become a habit of the LLMs and part anyway, sorry, so therefore how does the brand influence those things? They can't control in an agentic conversation. And what it does is it really means so much more of your content about the consumer life with your product needs to be available from the brand, and then influencing all those sources that they're going to go to make sure that you're not blowing smoke up their LLM ask. And that's a new challenge for brand marketing because it really actually brings back PR and can you get respected outside third parties to say great things about you? Are you driving influence and influencers and things like that. So it was sort of a long story, but I think starting to think about that, how do you influence the places you can't control because that's going to be a much broader set coming up over the next couple of years.

 

Wendell Venerable (37:15):

Yeah, I agree. I think there are things you can do, right? Obviously it starts with your product page and making sure you have all the relevant information, but then optimizing your own site for LLM, probably making verified brand accounts on these public forums that the LMS are eating like Reddit to engage with shoppers and maybe answer questions. But ultimately you have

 

Peter Crosby (37:45):

To make, you should be doing that anyway.

 

Wendell Venerable (37:47):

Well, you should,

 

Peter Crosby (37:48):

But

 

Wendell Venerable (37:49):

You have to make good products and people need to like your products and give positive feedback on your products. And so it might've been you, Lauren, I think you asked me one time, how am I thinking about Reddit and all the word of mouth stuff that LLMs pick up and I'm like, this might be provocative, but if I have to interfere at such a degree in those word of mouth spaces to try to improve my relevancy with LLMs, I probably have a bigger problem than LLMs. Yeah, well said. Yeah. At the end of the day, you got to make a product that works and that fills the need for the shopper and is worth the price point. And if all those things hold true, then hopefully word of mouth would be strong enough in those different forums for LLMs to pick 'em up.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (38:44):

But that's also a place to learn to your point, right? Listen to what people are saying, use Reddit, use ratings interviews, use all those places to get feedback for your products. We've always talked about this, looking at consumer sentiment and plugging it back into your product detail pages. I was reading one the other day actually, and it was a beauty brand and no one could figure out how to open the top. And I was like, oh, just read all the reviews. They're all saying that, put it in your carousel, put it in your hands. Content. They were saying it on Reddit. If you're listening, you can make those changes, but use it as a way to kind of get that feedback and plug it back in.

 

Wendell Venerable (39:18):

If you put the consumer at the core of every decision you make. In theory, you should be fine with LLMs in practice TBD. We'll find out. We'll see. We'll

 

Peter Crosby (39:29):

See. Yeah, we'll have you back next year and we'll see how that's going. Wendell, thank you so much. I mean so much wisdom today from you across three eras of learning really at different sizes, different models, and different stages of commerce. And we're really grateful for you for taking the time to share this with our DSI community. Thank you so much.

 

Wendell Venerable (39:54):

Of course. Thanks for having me. Hopefully it's valuable for somebody or a few people and maybe we could do this again someday. Would love

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (40:01):

It. Anytime you want to come back, think him back. Back.

 

Peter Crosby (40:04):

Thanks again to Wendell for sharing his journey and lessons with us. The Digital Shelf Summit is a place to get a lot of this kind of wisdom and we invite you to join us in May digitalshelfsummit.com. Thanks for being part of our community.