Nourishing Long Term Consumer Value from Ages 1 to 101, with Catherine Hayden, Chief Marketing Officer at Kate Farms

Transcript

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Lauren Livak Gilbert (00:00):

Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, where industry leaders share insights, strategies, and stories to help brands win in the ever-changing world of commerce.

 

Peter Crosby (00:22):

Hey, everyone. Peter Frosby here from the Digital Shelf Institute. Can you imagine a CPG company with an 87% customer retention rate and a 50% subscribe and save rate on Amazon? Wouldn't you wanna know their secret? Well, now you can. Thanks to our guest today, Catherine Hayden, Chief Marketing Officer at Kate Farms, the number one doctor recommended plant-based nutrition brand. She recounts the journey that got them where they are today and explains their tremendous investment in product quality, customer care, and medical research that drives trust and long-term customer value. Welcome to the podcast, Catherine. We are so happy to have you on. Thank you so much for coming on.

 

Catherine Hayden (01:05):

Peter, Lauren, thank you so much for having me. Lauren, I feel like this is long overdue. You're like my soul sister that I just met, uh, in February, and how have we not known each other our whole lives?

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (01:19):

I know. I have, and we have to thank Scotty Oshman for getting us together at Etail. Yes. How we met. So thanks, Scotty.

 

Catherine Hayden (01:24):

Yeah. Yeah. The impromptu podcast. Yeah.

 

Peter Crosby (01:28):

Awesome. Uh, the, the, the Kate Farms community of consumers, the products that you put out, your reason for being, uh, has resulted in an 87% retention rate. And you've been on it. It's a journey to get there. Like you, you went from retail to shutting down retail to D2C to Amazon and I'm sure there's tons of learnings along the way that would be interesting to our, our listeners. But first, let's just start with the story of Kate Farms because it really is a unique and really inspirational one.

 

Catherine Hayden (02:02):

Yeah. The story, uh, agree. Completely unique. Kate is real. So the Kate in Kate Farms is real and that's where it started. It started with Richard and Michelle. Two parents with deep love for their daughter, Kate, who was born with cerebral palsy. And she wasn't able to, to eat anything by mouth. So she was fed by a feeding tube. And as she was sort of progressing in those early years of life up until she was about five, she just wasn't tolerating any of the products that were on the market. And so I'll always remember this stat because I have a three and a five-year-old. Um, but her weight was 16 pounds when she was five years old. And so you can imagine the desperation - Ooh. That parents go into. Holy. They took it upon themselves to partner with dieticians, a chef, and, and really come up with a formulation or a product that would work for her.

 

(03:00):

And all of those, what's amazing is all of those philosophies still work today. So plant-based, free of the top common allergens, something that you could get at a farmer's market, highest quality, organic. And the other piece was they wanted to be able to enjoy a meal with her. And so even though she was tube fed, they wanted to have that dignity and normalcy. And so it's amazing. Today, fast-forward, Kate's turning 20 this year, this summer, um, at the end of July, which is fantastic. And all of those philosophies and principles still hold true for Kate Farms today.

 

Peter Crosby (03:37):

I'm flashing on the Diane Keaton movie Baby Boom like that. <laugh> Did you ever see that? I

 

Catherine Hayden (03:44):

Have not. I have not.

 

Peter Crosby (03:45):

I need

 

Catherine Hayden (03:45):

This

 

Peter Crosby (03:46):

Out on my list. Lauren, have

 

Catherine Hayden (03:48):

You seen that?

 

Peter Crosby (03:48):

Yes. Oh my God. Okay. Well, Diane Keaton. Yeah. And, and so that journey and so you arrived. What, what was your purpose in arriving? Like what, what brought you to the game? Yeah. What, what, what attracted you to this?

 

Catherine Hayden (04:01):

So maybe the, the bridge from Kate's incredible story to sort of the first formulation, um, to where the product was commercially made. And so it was, um, evolved over time. In 2016, 2015, Kate Farms became a real company and created the first sellable product with that formulation, those formulation principles. It was called Kate Farms Complete with a K at the time. And it actually sold into retail in the natural channel. And so the company had, uh, origins in, in the natural channel. What was interesting, there was also sort of early stages of katefarms.com, so DTC. And Brett, who came on as the CEO, had learned that actually many of the consumers that were on katefarms.com were buying a lot of product. And so he just reached out to them to understand who are you, what are your needs? And it turned out a lot of them were families like Richard and Michelle, or they were buying it for themselves for a health need.

 

(05:08):

And so this spark went off for Brett. Uh, this was about 2017, Q4 of 2017, where he realized, "Gosh, there is this completely underserved market, um, through, you know, traditional medical nutrition. I need to figure out, we need to figure out how to bring this product, um, to people that are covered by insurance." And so probably 95% of the company's revenue was going through the retail channel. He decided to shut that business down completely in Q4 of 2017 and pivot to standing up a medical sales force team, figuring out how to get a HCPCS code, which means your product's covered by insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, commercial plans, selling into hospitals, getting on formularies. So not an easy thing to do. I had joined, um, right at the start of 2018. So right at the start of that journey, um, out of retail at the time and, and into medical channel.

 

Peter Crosby (06:08):

Wow. That is a brave... That's, that's the, that's the big bet, right? That's the big bet thing.

 

Catherine Hayden (06:14):

That was the big bet. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's been maybe not to that, um, uh, magnitude, but there have been sort of many big bets along the way where, um, we've decided to continue to grow on kfarms.com, but invest in Amazon in a big way and reenter retail. We did that, uh, last year. Uh deliberate. So and, and Brett's decision was also deliberate back in, in 2017. But lots of big bets along the way.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (06:49):

That's awesome. And, and you now play D2C and you also sell on Amazon and - We

 

Catherine Hayden (06:54):

Do.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (06:55):

There's definitely always a little bit of a, "Okay, how do we prioritize the, these two channels? How do they work together? What are the roles that each of them play?" So how do you think about that? Because D2C, your D2C site came around first, right? And then you kind of - Yeah. Moved into Amazon. And how do you think about those as two separate, equally important channels?

 

Catherine Hayden (07:13):

Yes. I wanna say always from the beginning, we were absolutely intentional and perfect and we weren't -

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (07:20):

Obviously, obviously.

 

Catherine Hayden (07:22):

Looking back now, um, it is very clear what the role is, but it, it actually took us some figuring out. And so katefarms.com, if it... I, I think the way that we think about it now, but it took us some time to get there is it's one ecosystem. And rather than thinking about them as separate businesses, we're thinking about how the consumer shops and what the needs of that channel are. And that has been really important as we think about, you know, Amazon's been absolutely fantastic. Same with retail for new to brand customers and consumers and how do you think about your investment strategy, uh, related to that? Where katefarms.com, we've sort of rebranded as our home. And this is where we want the most detailed information where we have testimonials where you can learn from others. Um, Lauren, we will get yours as well.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (08:18):

I'm ready. I'm

 

Catherine Hayden (08:19):

Ready. And I think another unique feature of, of katefarms.com, uh, and we, maybe we can talk a little bit about this, is the customer care component. So making sure that there was, uh, support for anyone who was shopping on, on katefarms.com, but also for people that would be getting started in the medical channel, which is complex. You need to go through a home care company, you maybe need to get it through your hospital. Does your insurance cover it? So early as we, early on within the Kate Farms journey, um, specifically for katefarms.com, we, we also stood up a customer care team. Uh, so maybe a long-winded way to say the websites for deeper relationships, that consumer trust building, um, source of authority, and Amazon has been a fantastic way to just reach new audiences in a way that we haven't been able to do before.

 

(09:15):

Uh, I would say retail has a similar new to brand, um, and convenience, really important for convenience and, and everyday shopping. Um, but we're still... If someone has solved the pricing game, give me a call. <laugh> Maybe that is a topic for another day. Yeah. How do you think about pack sizes, the right offerings, the right pricing? I feel like we're learning our way into that.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (09:40):

That's a, that's a big one. I think everybody's kind of learning because Amazon changes their mind every five seconds. Yeah, that's a, that's a hard one. Uh, but can we talk about the customer care center for a minute? 'Cause I think that's really important. So when we think about customer care and just, like, everything that is provided, I think the way I look at it is, has two sides. Obviously, it's amazing for the consumer, right? Like, really great information to educate them to help them learn. But it's also so great for you as the brand, right? Because people are calling and telling you things about, like, the product and what they like, what they don't like, what they have questions about. So where does the customer care center kind of fit in your overarching omnichannel strategy? And I don't know if that's evolved kind of from - Yeah.

 

(10:22):

Start to finish or ongoing.

 

Catherine Hayden (10:24):

Yeah. Um, maybe I'll start with the... It sounds, uh, silly, but it's true. Like, the K-Farms mission, we exist to nourish your best life, and that's all people's lives. And we were talking a little bit about this earlier. Our products rate age, um, rang from ages one to 101. And early... We were really deliberate about that word, nourish, because we wanted it to be more than just nutrition. And for us, it means community care and support. And so very much from the beginning, from that 2017 exit to when we stood up, um, sort of a new go - to-market and business model, always had a customer care team. And I remember being in the office in the early days where there was a bell and every time there would be what we would call a new patient start or helping someone get covered by insurance or at least directing them to, um, to where to find the information, you would, you would sort of hear this bell ring.

 

(11:23):

Um, and, and that has been... I don't know. It's just been a part of our tapestry since the beginning today.

 

Peter Crosby (11:31):

It's like an angel getting its wings. <laugh> To make another movie.

 

Catherine Hayden (11:35):

I love that, Peter. Yes. Your movie references are on

 

Peter Crosby (11:38):

Point. I know. I'm on.

 

Catherine Hayden (11:39):

I know. That one I do know. That one I do know. <laugh> Um, so I, we've always viewed it as a strategic investment rather than a growth drive, uh, or a strategic investment and a, and a growth driver rather than a cost center. Uh we have 22 people strong, uh primarily based out of Santa Barbara. So like you'll call and you'll talk to Rachel and you'll talk to Kevin and you'll talk to Sarah and Bri. And the way that we've structured it is around the needs of the consumer. And so we do have, um, access specialists. So if you have questions about insurance, where to get it covered, we have that team. We have e-comm specialists. How do I navigate the website? Um manage all of my orders. Um we do have a lot of folks that pay direct through credit card and they just wanna talk to someone.

 

(12:29):

Uh and they wanna talk to someone for some time, especially if they're going through a health-related condition. And we also have, um, quality specialists. So if there is a health and wellbeing concern, a product quality concern, we have that intake team. And all the, the leader of our customer care team, Clara, she's done a fantastic job of actually maintaining that same size. So we'll call it 20 individuals. While the company has grown significantly in number of people served. So I nourished. I think we're now at, uh, a little over 600,000. And they get this year they will have 50,000 inbounds, whether it is through, through phone calls or through email. She did that through implementing chat, um, chatbot, call it farmhand. Um, through Service Cloud and just really the, the, uh, Salesforce center that it sits on where we can actually see the full consumer experience, um through Shopify integrations.

 

(13:35):

And actually the, the latest one that I just saw a presentation on last week is called Unwrapped where you can add any plugin, um that you want or any connection. And it essentially looks at consumer sentiment analysis, any feedback, anything that is said about K-Farms where you can understand trends, what questions need to be answered, where do we need more information, what products do people want? And so she's just done a great job of, um, of actually using AI even before AI was, uh, sort of a part of the build and not compromising on the level of service and care, but maintaining headcount neutral.

 

Peter Crosby (14:18):

That is so important because I'm listening to you and of course you said we're not worried about it really as a cost center, but of course that comes into play in terms of how can you provide the richest nourishment while, you know, maintaining headcount? That is, that's the question. They may not call it nourishment, but that's the question everyone's trying to answer.

 

Catherine Hayden (14:38):

Yeah.

 

Peter Crosby (14:39):

So, uh, I don't, is Unwrapped a sort of a code name of a program or is that actually, uh, an application?

 

Catherine Hayden (14:46):

That, that's the name of the application. Okay. Um, and I, I will double check that. I'm pr - I believe that is the name of the application that we've used. Yeah.

 

Peter Crosby (14:55):

Just sounds super cool. Now I'm gona have to do some Googling. <laugh> Well, Lauren, you're nodding your head. Is that, had you heard of it? No, I haven't heard

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (15:01):

Of it. Okay.

 

Peter Crosby (15:02):

I'm nodding

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (15:03):

My head because I agreed that it's a cool name, but I had not heard of it. So I'll also be Googling. <laugh>

 

Peter Crosby (15:08):

Fascinating. Um, and so, I mean, really this goes to the idea of retention that for, I would imagine for you folks being a premium product and, and funding it appropriately to have this kind of customer care, customer lifetime value is a critical metric for you all. And, and so you obviously are investing in that, but with so many, so much noise in the nutrition market right now, and certainly when it comes to protein and all that sort of thing, how do you, how do you retain your customers? What is that s - what is that journey, um, to, to track that and encourage it? Um, all the way from, I would imagine, getting a new customer to sort of come on over, it's safe over here, to - Yep. Um, to just keeping them, keeping a customer staying and, and hopefully buying more.

 

Catherine Hayden (16:00):

I would say two, two parts to that. The first is, like, fundamentally, the product has to work. And by work, it, it needs to make people feel good. So you're not gona continue to drink something, um if you're not feeling good while you're on it. And just as important i - especially in this category is taste and the sensory experience. And so, like, the, the actual of having a product that's designed to delight. So I would say that is, like, fundamentally the most important. Uh, what's amazing I, Kate Farms, I know this, would not have survived with the switch over to the medical channel and really focusing on people with health needs and then getting back to everyday nutrition if the product just wasn't exceptional. So that's number one. I think the other piece is, um, all of the, what we talked about with customer care, uh, and the support that's provided in, in sort of one of the updates recently, we can actually see I think it's about a thousand dollars per, um, customer lifetime value extra for an individual, for a customer that is actually connected with customer care.

 

(17:15):

So there's real value there and the value comes in the length of staying on the product. So whether they help them understand product differences, fix their subscription, solved a problem, like there's, uh, incredible value in the support that's being provided that someone stays on it longer. Um, and then maybe the third, which is, uh, I think unique to the space and the category that Kate Farms plays in m- maybe different than the, I don't know, fast moving high protein category. When you look at the consumers that are purchasing Kate Farms products, they are individuals with a wide range of health needs. So they could be someone going through chemotherapy for their cancer treatment and they need nutrition support to someone who has allergies and this is their convenient option. Um - Have I raised my hands raise your hand? Yes. And it becomes a part of their routine.

 

(18:14):

And so there is something incredibly sticky and loyal about the needs that are being met by this type of a product, um, which probably goes back to point one, like the product has to work. That leads to 87% retention on our DTC site. We recently met with our, um, uh, vendor manager at, at Amazon back in, in April and he had shared in the entire nutrition category, uh, we are actually the leader in terms of, uh, revenue through subscribe and save. So it's, it's 50%, which is quite high for the category. I think average is around 25, 30. And then when he looked at the value of a, the lifetime value of a subscriber, subscribe and save customer versus one-time purchase, it's 13X different. And so I, I think that there is something deeply there about the good that the product is doing and the needs of the consumer set, um, that it's meeting.

 

Peter Crosby (19:20):

And so much of that must also be in your mind to keep that growth going is thinking about your product innovation. And I don't, I don't want you to give away secrets or anything, but that must be a really important part of how, how else can you nourish these customers - Yeah. Over a longer period of time.

 

Catherine Hayden (19:38):

Yeah. One of our, um, one of our early sort of, I don't know, innovation strategies was, "Okay, take a look at what the big guys are doing and make it better. And so how do we bring, bring the better for you version?" And we simply looked at all of the, we'll call it insurance codes that were covered by those products. And we're like, "We need to have a product in each of these." And so you can think about sort of medical specialty. We need to have a product in allergy and we need to have a product for this high calorie support and we need to have a product in this peptide. Where we're now looking and, and I'd say in the last past 18 months is maybe not necessarily covered by insurance, but still a health need. And it was actually an insight that came to us from the former, um, chief strategy officer at Weight Watchers where in her, in their database of, I don't know, 2000, two million plus consumers.

 

(20:34):

She was actually seeing, um, Kate Farms was popping up. So as people were on a weight management or weight loss journey, they were looking to protein, um, shakes, protein supplements. And Kate Farms was one that popped up. She's like, "What is this? I've like never heard of Kate Farms." I like to say it's the most loved brand you've never heard of. And so we're, we're on a mission to change that. Um, and so that prompted, oh my goodness, there is this whole need of individuals that are on GLP-1 therapy that could potentially be malnourished. How do we bring them the right nutrition that's not just protein, but is also the right combination of fiber and vitamins and minerals and do it in a exceptional tasting product with zero grams of sugar. Uh, and we actually got feedback from, um, a researcher at Novo at the time to make sure that we were really designing this right.

 

(21:32):

Uh, and so that, that prompted actually the, the origin of High Protein Nutrition Shake, which launched last year. So we launched it. We were supposed to launch in three flavors. We call it our Neapolitan. Uh, we led with chocolate and strawberry and we actually held back vanilla because the taste was good, but it wasn't exceptional. And so 800, uh, iterations later, we are actually launching that now. 800. It will be available through Prime Day. It's also available on kfarms.com. Um, and so excited to see that product hit market. And the vanilla profile is exceptional. It's got this, um, toasted marshmallow richness. Um, it's just, it's a very nostalgic vanilla. And so, yeah, that's, uh, probably a, a newer category or newer need state that we're getting into that's been exciting over the past, uh, 18 months.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (22:33):

And one thing I know you focus a lot on is, like, trust and the quality of your products. And what I think is really interesting is you have a chief medical officer, right? Like, that is - We do. On step. And I think that is so unique for a brand because you are so dedicated to the ingredients, the formulation. So can you just talk a little bit about that? Because I think that it also gives so much weight to the product - Yeah. And to the messaging, and just to the whole mission of what you're doing.

 

Catherine Hayden (23:02):

Yes. So Dr. Christina Valentine is a force. She actually - That's a great name.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (23:07):

I want my

 

Catherine Hayden (23:07):

Name to be Dr. Valentine. Dr. Valentine. Dr. Dr. V. Again,

 

Peter Crosby (23:12):

Again, with, uh, movie references, like a superhero alter ego, like the Bruce Rain of Batman. Yes. Yes.

 

Catherine Hayden (23:18):

Also so perfect for our, like, brand love ethos. Yeah.

 

Peter Crosby (23:23):

And

 

Catherine Hayden (23:24):

Yes, we celebrate, we celebrate her plenty on Valentine's Day. Uh, no, she's this rare, like, just incredibly fascinating human who I can tell her backstory in another podcast, but, like, ran professionally for Nike in her early days, became a dietician, still holds onto her dietician credentials, then became a neonatologist, has done so, so much research, like NIH grant-funded research, so, like, real research. Um, and we're just so excited to have her on the team. And she's, she's really the force behind all of the research and publications that we're doing. So down to, you know, how's the, how's the product reacting in the body? What are the inflammatory, um, processes that are, are happening and benefiting from this? To we actually have new data that just came out that it looked at hospital length of stay, and it was done through a group purchasing organization, Premier, and their research arm, um, that actually showed a reduction in hospital length of stay for individuals that were on Kate Farms versus, um, the control set that they looked at.

 

(24:37):

And so everything from, like, bench science all the way to, like, deep real-world evidence health economics, uh, research. And I think it's really, um, to your point, like, the credibility, uh, and importance of that when I, when I think back to, like, what, what is it that makes Kate Farms stand apart? Uh, the first is no one is, no one is holding space in what I call almost this new category of wholesome nutrition and clinical precision. And so it's this balance of these incredible great for you ingredients with, like, wild clinical rigor and science that's going into the product. Um, the second piece would be setting a higher standard. And so whether that's the product quality to even our people and culture team and the things we put in place for our employees and people, next week we have our annual refresh week where we shut the company down, uh, and let people have a moment.

 

(25:36):

It is the best when you're not getting any emails from anybody. Oh, yeah. And you're all on a refresh week.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (25:41):

That sounds awesome.

 

Catherine Hayden (25:41):

Uh, and we talked about... Yeah. We talked about the third earlier, which is, uh, this idea of design to delight, whether it's the product formulation itself, or even the, um, packaging experience. We launched, launched a product a couple years ago for tube feeders in, um, almost like a go- go squeeze package that could be used on the go and also looked and brought a sense of normalcy in your cupboard when you had to unpack your tube feeding food and, and product. So anyways, long-winded to say Dr. V rocks, science rocks. <laugh> And that is a very big part of our identity, is our science, uh, and clinical heritage.

 

Peter Crosby (26:26):

You know, as I listen to you so you, you all are so thoughtful about the entire customer consumer journey with the, with your product. And I'm wondering, is that, uh, do you have sort of a repeatable process that you use to, when you're going, when you're thinking of a new use case, is there a consistent process that you use to kind of s - get everyone in the room and sort of think all that through? Like, how, how do you... Is this something you've sort of packaged up here? My computer, I

 

Catherine Hayden (26:57):

Wish.

 

Peter Crosby (26:58):

No.

 

Catherine Hayden (26:58):

<laugh>

 

Peter Crosby (26:59):

You should. You should write the book.

 

Catherine Hayden (27:01):

I think that's a really good question. I, I almost want this... I don't know, this also could sound silly. Like, I wonder if it's just, like, innate in the way that we, we work and think through, um, and the empathy that the team has to really understand who the consumer is at the other end. Yeah. Um, and what their needs are and what we're solving. I wish we had a fancy process for it. I don't think you need one, but I think it starts with that. But you could probably

 

Peter Crosby (27:27):

Make a lot of money writing one. <laugh>

 

Catherine Hayden (27:32):

New revenue stream.

 

Peter Crosby (27:33):

Yes. There we go. Later. Later. And

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (27:35):

Then maybe a Kate Farms movie, because there's so many movie references. I don't

 

Catherine Hayden (27:39):

Know.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (27:39):

Yes. Yes. I love it. Well, Kevin, you also talked about, like, the big players, right? So there's definitely big brands that have probably huge budgets and have been a- around a little bit longer than you. And you are, like, a challenger brand who's, like, coming up - Yeah.

 

Peter Crosby (27:53):

And

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (27:53):

Making your name for it. So how do you compete with some of those bigger brands, even with, like, a media dollar perspective? And I know you're launching your first big campaign, National Campaign. I know. I know. So, like, what, how do you think through that? Uh,

 

Catherine Hayden (28:07):

Well, we, we... It's the David and Goliath approach. And so they're actually that we would bring sort of that type of thinking in early days, like, how are we gona outmaneuver? Um, I, going back to, I think the most important piece is being incredibly clear on who you are and what those differentiators are. And it took us a while to be able to articulate it, but that wholesome nutrition with clinical precision, uh, higher standard and designed to delight, that is what makes Kate Farms Kate Farms. And we sort of live that expression, Peter, as you were saying, in everything that we do. Uh, I think the other piece that has, um, I don't know, maybe in the blocking and tackling of it, that has been really effective where you don't need to outspend partnerships. And how do we think about partnering? So back, I don't know, let's go back in the, in the time machine to, to 2019.

 

(29:05):

And it was when Kate Farms was starting to just get into the medical channel. We had been there for about a year, a year and a half. And the way that the hospital system works is traditionally, hospital systems will choose one of the larger players. So they'll be on contract with that. It's like you're gonna use 80% of your volume will be for company A, or 80% of your volume for company N. I won't say full names. Um, and so we're like, "Gosh, this is a model that we need to figure out how to get within." And I remember, uh, Brett and I were on a roadshow and one of the GPO presentations we went to, we actually were educating on the plant-based market in consumer and how that was actually changing the landscape and the demands of consumer and sharing what we were seeing from a Kate Farms perspective.

 

(29:58):

And so we like to see... Say that we led that. GPOs are very smart, and so they also saw similar insights. They actually created the plant-based category. And so it was the first time that we partnered in a different way, um, through a category idea that allowed us to sort of get in the hospital and not get contracted out. And what's amazing when you now look at, uh, the plant-based market, which sounds like, oh yeah, that's probably niche. For kids, for pediatric in the medical channel, it now almost makes up 50% of the volume. And so there is something that just such high quality and better for you in terms of what consumers, what parents want and they're looking for. Uh, we're seeing definitely growing trends on the adult side as well. There's some reimbursement challenges that, um, don't make it as, uh, sort of significant as, as the 50%.

 

(30:56):

But maybe that's just an example of, um, it isn't, it, it's also about partnering with your, your channel partners and your business partners, um, as you're growing and scaling as well.

 

Peter Crosby (31:11):

And, and in terms of partnerships, when you initially started talking, I was thinking of like brand partnerships. Do you do any of that kind of sort of creating packages of similar mindset, you know, consumer mindset kind of thing? Does that-

 

Catherine Hayden (31:25):

That is, I would say that's next on our, on our horizon. So we, uh, I think we've built up this flywheel on the medical side where we, it will still need, um, ongoing support and love, but we have also shift, uh, shifted time and investment and, and resources into building communities, um, an influencer and creator model and asking the questions if we were to partner with an individual, if we were to partner with a brand, um, if we were to partner with a GLP-1 platform, who would that be and what would that look like? And so it's, it's interesting to see the evolution of that from a very B2B partnership model that's now transitioning into what could a more traditional brand partnership model look like? U, and I think those are things you'll probably start seeing from us, uh, in the near future.

 

Peter Crosby (32:24):

Wow. That's awesome. It'd be so fun to watch. Yeah.

 

Catherine Hayden (32:27):

Yeah.

 

Peter Crosby (32:27):

Um, so to close out, um, there's this thing called artificial intelligence. I don't know if you've heard of it. I,

 

Catherine Hayden (32:35):

Maybe tell me a little bit about it. <laugh>

 

Peter Crosby (32:37):

Yeah. It's, it's better than Baby Boom. Is it a

 

Catherine Hayden (32:39):

Movie? <laugh>

 

Peter Crosby (32:42):

Probably. It feels like one. Sometimes it feels like a horror movie, but that, that's a different podcast too. <laugh> Um, so you talked about the use of AI to, uh, bolster your nourishment in the customer care section and -

 

Catherine Hayden (32:55):

Yes.

 

Peter Crosby (32:55):

And overall, and I guess, uh, you know, really putting on your marketing operations hat in a way, maybe to focus there, because I'm sure there's a lot of places we could take this. But the agentic shelf, as we call it, you know, this addition to the physical and the digital shelf, and now it's sort of the machine being a customer. Um, and the, the big thing that we've talked about is the need to make sure that you have a context layer of information of product data, essentially, that can handle any question that - Yeah. That an agent or the consumer using it might ask. And that's a big, that's a load of work. Yes. But it's also that opportunity. So I'm wondering how you've thought about, one, it seems like you folks probably have a leg up on this because your whole business seems contextual. But I'll let you answer the question <laugh> rather than me answering it.

 

(33:49):

And just wondering, like, how do you think about that from a marketing, from getting that foundational fuel in place to make sure that you're winning these conversations? Yeah.

 

Catherine Hayden (34:00):

We... Oh, gosh. The probably the easiest way to say is, uh, we are still in the early innings of this. Yeah. And so when I look across, uh, marketing team, when I look across just the enterprise and organization, there are a lot of individual AI use cases that are happening. I think the piece that needs to come together quickly, we have a plan to do that, is what is the broader AI strategy? Um, I had a call this morning. We actually... Marketing is gonna be one of the first places, um within the company that we're looking to advance AI and had a fascinating conversation, uh, a month or so ago with the former CMO of Reckitt who did a project with BCG that came in and actually like completely turned the marketing organization on its head, uh, in a fantastic way from efficiency to meeting the needs of the consumer.

 

(34:55):

What stood out for me in that conversation is the importance of the early day almost like task identification where you're going through the individual work of people to define and document, codify what are they doing and what could eventually be, uh, augmented, enhanced by, by AI, um, to what other systems or capabilities do we need to build? The other piece that I learned in that is through that exercise, they actually interviewed, I think it was like the top 15% of performers. And Peter, to your question about like how do you start to build up the knowledge base? They actually used those interviews to understand how marketers think, how they're approaching questions, what is their context and data stack that they're sort of pulling from or referring to? And like that incredible knowledge actually built up the foundational layer that then the AI model was built on for sort of, um, whatever initiatives or, or tools they were looking to bring in.

 

(36:10):

And so, yeah, we actually were gona be kicking off this project internally. I see two goals of it. One is internal efficiency and helping people do their best work and getting them out of the, um, administrative burden that can exist in companies, especially as they're growing. Uh, and two, um, probably just as important, if not more, how do we better serve the needs of our consumers, um, through experiences, through individual everything, content, they're searching on LLMs. How, how are we showing up in the right places? So I don't have the answer for it, but I am actually really excited that there is now a plan to go find the answers and hearing others that have gone through this, um, in a very sort of logical way -

 

Peter Crosby (37:00):

Yeah.

 

Catherine Hayden (37:00):

Um, makes it seem more tangible.

 

Peter Crosby (37:03):

Yeah, there's no reason to scurry around right now or d- d- do, you know, outrageous things to try and get there. I feel like it does all come back to the fundamentals of how you work and just trying to look for those opportunities to, to make that, that wheel spin faster. We, you know, we call, we talk about it as machine speed. Like how do you enable your marketing to work at machine speed? And I think I found, and please chime in, when I, when I'm sort of, uh, looking for a premium product through an agentic search, like I, I went and searched the other day, like I have a friend who's a wine enthusiast and what if I wanted to, what if he asked me to pair ch - to find chocolates to pair with, uh, his dessert course or something like that? A

 

Catherine Hayden (37:56):

Very

 

Peter Crosby (37:57):

Important question. Right. Thank you. And so I asked and it turned out the recommendations that, um, that Gemini gave me were all niche, like, um, were all niche products. Like ones I had never heard of. Like you would've never

 

Catherine Hayden (38:12):

Found them

 

Peter Crosby (38:13):

Otherwise. Never found them otherwise. Wow. And, and when I actually asked him, "Well, why did you... I've never heard any of these. Why did you tell me these?" And they said, "Well, figured your friend is a snob, so he'd probably want, you know, really, really interesting, unusual, uh, very, you know, single source, you know, all the stuff that, that is sort of a... " And I'm just thinking in your business that, that might, you might be an advantage because sort of the, uh, the, uh, the pay-for-play advantage goes away when it really is based on just an agent trying to give the, the best answer. Yes. And you have all of that context to drive that, I feel like.

 

Catherine Hayden (38:58):

I think the other

 

Peter Crosby (38:59):

Piece - You're

 

Catherine Hayden (38:59):

Fine. Is, uh, sources of authority. Yes. And so do you show up in medical journals?

 

Peter Crosby (39:07):

Yep.

 

Catherine Hayden (39:07):

Are you showing up in, like, traditional PR? Mm-hmm. Are you showing up on best of lists? And so things that have actually been quite, at least on the PR side, that there's been maybe a bit of a drift to move away from that. It's like, "Oh, actually, wait." <laugh>

 

Peter Crosby (39:22):

Wait a second.

 

Catherine Hayden (39:23):

We need to be showing up on these sources of authority in order to now show up on, you know, your favorite chat of the day. And many have multiple open that they're searching for. Yeah. Yeah. Um, someone in... We have, uh, many, many Slack channels. And yesterday, someone shared a consumer comment on Amazon where they cut and paste what they, what... I don't know if it was Claude or Chat, but how they actually got to the product and what the prompt was and what they recommended. And so now people are, like, cutting and pasting their feedback - <laugh>

 

Peter Crosby (40:02):

Their conversation. That they're

 

Catherine Hayden (40:03):

Getting on Claude and Chat into Amazon reviews. I'm like, "This is wild."

 

Peter Crosby (40:08):

Yeah. It's all becoming one int - as you were saying - Ecosystem. It's all this ecosystem and - Yeah. Consistency is your friend in that and - Yeah. Clarity. And so, and I, I'm, I just think it's exciting to... In a year from now, we'll have you back and you can tell us how <laugh> - Please.

 

Catherine Hayden (40:26):

I was gonna ask, okay, let, let us just go down the 12 months and see where we end up. Yeah, we are learning. 100%. Yes. Yes. Catherine - And that you will have your swag, Peter. <laugh> You can be wearing your Kate Farms hat. <laugh> We will get you your high protein nutrition shake. <laugh>

 

Peter Crosby (40:44):

Now people will think I'm on the take, but which I totally am. <laugh> Catherine, thank you so much for bringing this story to us and, and the way that, that your entire brand thinks about nourishing their customer throughout all their journey. It's just, it's so cool and fun and so vibrant and we really appreciate you bringing it to our listeners.

 

Catherine Hayden (41:07):

Thank you both for having me.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (41:09):

Yeah. Thank you, Catherine. And thank you for worrying about us allergy people out there because it is very much appreciated. So thank you. <laugh>

 

Catherine Hayden (41:17):

High quality nutrition for everyone.

 

Lauren Livak Gilbert (41:20):

I love it. I love it. <laugh> Everybody check it out. Thanks, Catherine.

 

Peter Crosby (41:23):

Thanks so much to Kate for all the inspiration and insights. More as always to be found at digitalshelfinstitute.org. Become a member today. Thanks for being part of our community.