Limiting Beliefs Holding Back? You Can S.N.A.P. Out of It, with Erica Anderson Rooney, author of Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors

Transcript

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Peter Crosby (00:00):

Welcome to unpacking the Digital Shelf where we explore brand manufacturing in the digital age. Hey everyone. Peter Crosby here from The Digital Shelf Institute. I'm assuming all of you listening are human. So I also assume all of you, like me, struggle with beliefs about ourselves and our capabilities that hold us back from our full potential. If you're not human, please connect up with me on LinkedIn because I have questions. In the meantime though, for us humans and because of systemic barriers, particularly women, we need to find ways to rewire our brains to snap out of it and pivot to beliefs and actions that help us achieve our goals and lift others up with us today, we are joined by Erica Anderson Rooney. She's the author of Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors in which she details a neuroscience backed method for altering the subconscious beliefs that hold us back. Erica, welcome to the podcast. We are so delighted to have you here. What an amazing book.

Erica Anderson Rooney (01:09):

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, Peter. Thank you, Lauren. It was a labor of love, as I'm sure you've heard many authors say before, but I had so much fun writing it.

Peter Crosby (01:19):

Well, that's amazing. We often hear that writing a book is just labor, so I'm glad there was love in it as well, and it certainly comes out in the book. Thank you. The advocacy for women and as an ally and also someone who struggles from a lot of the sticky floors that you talk about in your book, I found it valuable from both those perspectives, so thanks.

Erica Anderson Rooney (01:46):

Amazing. I know I tell people all the time, sticky floors are not gender specific. They are for everyone, and while the book was written with corporate women in mind, it really applies across the board. So I'm glad you said that, Peter.

Peter Crosby (02:00):

Absolutely. So it's a great time as we begin a new year to think about how we can snap out of our limiting beliefs. There's imposter syndrome, just generalized fear, this procrastination, which I haven't even gotten around to doing yet, so that's familiar to me and how we can use science to really retrain, rewire our brains. So it's totally relatable. And I was wondering, well actually, I thought maybe I should read just for the women in our audience and also for the men who need to know where the world is at for women in business right now. Just wanted to paint a picture with some of the stats that you include in your book. So as of January 1st, 2023, women have finally busted into the double digits with five new women stepping into the CEO role, pushing the number of represented female executives to 53 in the Fortune 500.

(02:58):

Just everyone note the difference there, and that's been over 68 years. It will take 132 years for women to reach pay parity to men. And I don't say these stats just, it shouldn't be discouraging, but rather, I think the inspiration I found from your book was the way that each individual can invest in themselves and in rewiring their brains to overcome those sticky floors that stand in their way. And by doing so, it seems like overcome some of the barriers that society or misogyny or whatever that might be might put in their way. Am I sort of summing that up in a reasonable way? And I'd love to hear a bit more like how your background and how you came to write the book with that in mind.

Erica Anderson Rooney (03:59):

And I love that they kind of all intertwine. And the way I came to writing the book was I'm very growth minded. I'm a very ambitious person, so I am constantly looking, how can I grow? How can I improve? And that is amazing. And it landed me in the C-suite at a very young age. So kudos to me. I did the work I got there, but that was not without a lot of strife. It was not without a lot of struggle, and it definitely was without a lot of supporters because a lot of my other female friends weren't doing it. A lot of the women in my circles weren't doing it. And it was so frustrating and disheartening for me to hear these stats that the number of women in the C-suite, the pay disparity that was going to take 132 years to close, that was not going to be my life. It was just unacceptable for me. But I wrote this book because people tend to think we are so much further along with gender equity than we really are. Right? They're like women can have it all, do it all, be it all. Yes, sure we can. Right? Society hasn't totally caught up with that. So we don't quite have the systems in the playbooks, inequality for everyone, men and women alike. But let me ask you a question. Do you know what year it was when women were allowed to get a business loan without a male cosigner?

Lauren Livak Gilbert (05:25):

I'm sure it's something surprising in the 19 hundreds that I would never have expected.

Erica Anderson Rooney (05:30):

1988. 88.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (05:33):

That's sad. That's sad.

Erica Anderson Rooney (05:35):

1988, y'all, most people who are listening to this podcast were born either around that time period or before it. Okay, maybe we have some younger people listening to it. But 1988, so it's really not that long ago that women, we were majorly held back could not get a business loan, could not get mortgages that was in the 1970s. And so we are not as far along as we'd like to think. We are not as far along as we'd like to give ourselves credit for, but what we do know about systems and the barriers is that they take a really long time to change. They take generations and generations to change because they're ingrained in us. These societal expectations and how we move through the world are all ingrained inside of us at such an early age that it takes a long time to close. So the book was written instead to say, listen, we still need to attack the systems that are holding us back, but we also have to do the work internally, which as you know, often the oppressed parties are the ones that have to do the initial change, and we've got to dig in and do the work.

(06:45):

And that is where the concept of sticky floors came in. How am I holding myself back from asking for the raise? How am I holding myself back? Am I not applying for the job? Am I not speaking up? Am I not doing what I really want to do because I'm worried about what other people will think? Guess what? All of those were true for me at some point in my career. And so I knew if they were true for me, they were true for other women. And that's kind of how the whole book came about.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (07:10):

Well, I love that because I feel like as I was reading it, I was just nodding my head and wanting to be like, yes, yes, yes. Because you don't always have these conversations, and especially as a woman, you feel very alone in the things that you're going through. And if you don't have other people who are in the same role who are in an executive corporate America type of setting, you don't know how to ask those questions. And so I think that was one of the things about the book that I liked. It was like, I'm not alone. I know that we're all going through this and it's okay to talk about and we need to tackle it together. And a large part of it is perspective, and that's something that we can control. So that was a beautiful moment in the book where it was just like, wow, I can actually change my mindset as one person and then uplift my other colleagues and the other people around me to be able to do that. So thank you for that.

Erica Anderson Rooney (07:59):

Yeah, I mean, it's a ripple effect. Absolutely. And it's like one person starts that ripple effect starts to change, and then over time we will actually make a difference.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (08:10):

I love that. And so we're talking about the concept of sticky floors. So can you share with us what a sticky floor is and then maybe how we've gotten ourselves stuck and love some of the examples that you shared in your book as well?

Erica Anderson Rooney (08:21):

Oh my gosh, yes. Everybody's always like, well, what are you talking about? And especially being a woman, they're like, yeah, I do have sticky floors. I got kids, right? I'm not talking about your kitchen floors my friend. I am talking about the limiting beliefs and the toxic behaviors that keep you stuck. So what I would also say about this book and how it differs from a lot of the other mindset books out there is it's not just talking about these sticky floors of imposter syndrome, perfectionism, fear or burnout, but we are also talking about what are the actions, the things we're doing or not doing that are keeping us stuck Too much wine on a Wednesday, not raising your hand to ask for a promotion or a question doom scrolling on TikTok at night when you should be getting some rest, maybe staying in a toxic relationship.

(09:06):

Those are all things that also hold you back. So in a nutshell, that's what sticky floors are, and that's why I love this juxtaposition of the glass ceiling because we all know what glass ceilings are. They are in the world of corporate America, that very real ceiling that you bash your head up against when you are trying to break into the C-suite, but you just can't get there because you're a woman or a minority or in a protective class. But we all put ceilings on what we think is possible. And that's where a lot of those limiting beliefs and toxic behaviors come in is you may be sitting there going, I don't want to be a C-level leader. I don't want to have all that stress. And it's like, okay, but where are you limiting yourself in your own life? Maybe that's in your relationship and you don't think you deserve a loving amazing marriage. Maybe it's with your friendships or with your career. It could be anywhere. But we all place these ceilings on what we think is possible over our own selves. And I'm here to say we've got to smash through all of those because on the other side of that is infinite possibilities,

Lauren Livak Gilbert (10:13):

And you often don't realize that you're doing it to yourself. I think that's the other thing that's really interesting, right? Once you have a thought a couple of times, it becomes ingrained in who you are and how you think. And I remember I was having a conversation with a female recruiter once, and it was early on in my career, and I was questioning whether I should ask for a raise, and she said, would a man question that such a simple sentence? But I was like, wow, no, they wouldn't. So why am I questioning it? But it is just ingrained so much in how we think, and so it just becomes who we are and how we approach things. I loved that you were talking about sticky floors as termites that resonated so well because they can just invest in your brain, and then it's just that echo chamber that you just keep hearing over and over and over again.

Erica Anderson Rooney (10:57):

Well, and also when we're comparing 'em with termites, right? Nobody sees those termites from the outside. It's not like you're walking around with a big neon sign that says, I struggle with perfectionism. So no, it's all deep and inside, but it can completely crumble your home if you don't take care of those things. So absolutely. I love thinking about it like a termite

Peter Crosby (11:20):

Yes. I'm not a fan, so I'm glad

(11:23):

Replicate them. Yes. And I think the really powerful thing here is that science lies behind the recommendations that you're making, that we're not just like, well just change what you're doing. No, you can actually rewire your brains so that my instincts can change, my ways of responding can actually get rewired in my brain so that the sticky floor isn't the first thing that I resort to, but rather well, anyway, I'll let you sort of talk about that. Why is it that we know that this kind of work can actually rewire brains? Where's the proof of that? And then you can walk us through what the snap method is for our listeners.

Erica Anderson Rooney (12:12):

Well, and that's my other thing too. I may be a little woo woo. I am all like, I'm going to leave it up to the universe, let the magic happen, but that is only going to get you so far. And so that's why I really wanted to understand the science behind it. And Lauren, when you were talking earlier about somebody asking you, would a man do that? And your answer was no. It's not necessarily about men and women. There are men who wouldn't ask for a raise. But also it is, and there are so many studies out there that show you that women tend to be more focused on others than on of self. And on the flip side of that, men are more self-focused and then others focused. So for women, we walk into a room and we're talking about pay negotiations. We're more concerned that everybody in the room is being treated fairly, that we're all getting the pay that we deserve for our skills and our expectations.

(13:04):

Whereas men come in and they're like, Hey, I'm out for my number one star player that is me, so I'm going to get mine. And then the rest of you can divvy it up fairly. And so yes, it is very, very men versus women in that retrospect. But the science shows, and I'm sure you've seen this with the HP study, that men will apply for jobs when they meet 60% of the criteria, and women don't apply until they meet 100% of the criteria. Why is that? It goes back to that self, right? Women don't want to waste other recruiters time. They find that their time is very valuable. Why would I apply if I'm not going to be the right fit? I don't want to waste their time. And their conversations we're a man says, let me throw my hat in the ring. So we have to learn and understand what our natural responses are. And those natural responses have been ingrained in us over time since childhood, all of the little shows we were watching, I don't even know, the Brady Bunch and whatnot. All of those send these subliminal messages which impact our psyche. So it is deeply rooted in the science and in the research, and it takes a very conscious mind and a conscious decision to say, I am not going to act in that same way. So Peter answer. Oh, go

Peter Crosby (14:19):

Ahead. No, I love the study that you cited to really bring this home for me. Was that taxi cab driver study in London? Can you just walk us very quickly through that?

Erica Anderson Rooney (14:34):

Oh my gosh.

(14:35):

The taxi cab driver story is hysterical to me because I have lived in North Carolina now for 15 plus years. I will still put my GPS on to go somewhere that been 50 million times. It drives my husband crazy, but I'm like, I got to have it. But here's what's really interesting. So if you've never been to London, they are not on a grid system. They are not street 1, 2, 3, avenue, 4, 5, 6, they are just hodgepodge all over the place. You really have to be good at reading a map or you have to know the city very, very well. And they did this test with taxi drivers to really see are they able to pick up these streets and learn them and kind of change their brain and understand it? And the answer was that yes, these taxi cab drivers could do that. And so it does show you that you can actually grow and change your brain, your brain. I want you to start thinking of it like a ball of clay. It is not fixed. It is completely moldable. You have the power to kind of squish and smush that brain of yours into any shape that you want. But I'm so glad you brought that up, Peter, because I love all of these different studies and the truth bombs that are out there that really just kind of tie the two together. So thank you

Peter Crosby (15:59):

For sharing. And the idea that in the study they found that a study done at the University College of London identified it would take 66 days as the average amount of time for an action to become automatic. And that sticking, not sticky floors, but staying with something is important to just keep practicing and keep making that thing. I know certainly from the gym or anything else that I try to do with some consistency, it takes a while to get that ingrained. So tell us what the SNAP method consists of.

Erica Anderson Rooney (16:36):

Yeah, so I made it so you could remember. It is just that easy. You just snap out of it, right? It's that easy and that hard. But the S stands for stop and take note. Note of the physical sensations in your body because, and this is super important, Lauren, you were alluding to this at the very beginning of our discussion. The body keeps score. Your body knows what is going on oftentimes before your conscious mind does. And so when you stop and take note, that is that pattern interrupt, that is that pause, that break in the cycle where we all tend to spiral and go crazy. So take note, some of those physical sensations could be sweaty palms. It could be a racing heart. It could be that red flush that you get up your neck and up your chest when you're really nervous and you don't want to ask your boss for a raise.

(17:28):

I mean, there's so many of 'em. It just depends on how your body reacts. The N in the SNAP method is for name it. And that is naming your sticky floor. And that is so important because when you name something, you can take your power back over it. So Lauren, this is where you were alluding to, I think you said you can't unsee it or something like that. I once had a boss that said, you can't unring the bell. So once you know, oh my gosh, I get nervous or anxious, or I worry about what other people will think, you now know that you do that. You can't unknow it, you do it. So you want to name that sticky floor. The A is for ask and answer. And those are some very deep and personal questions. And two of my favorite questions that I always ask everyone to think about, is this thought helpful and is this thought true?

(18:18):

Because most of the time it's not a helpful thought. I've never done that. I can't do that. I'm not tall enough than enough, pretty enough, right? I ain't helpful. And is it true? Usually it's not true. However, some of those thoughts, they might have some truth to it. If your negative thought is that I've never done something like this, there's no way, okay, if you've never done it, you've never done it, but it's that last bit. There's no way. I haven't done it yet. I haven't done it, but I'm going to try. And it just kind of shifts that little perspective. But the P is the most powerful part of that step. And the P is for the pivot. And the pivot is simply a reframe. It's from, I don't have to do this to, I get to do this from, I've never done this to, I haven't done it yet. And it just opens up a little bit of possibility. And that is all we need to snap out of those sticky floors. I'm not trying to get you to go from negative all the way to rainbows and puppies and sunshine. I want you to go from negative to neutral because if we can just get to neutral and we can be curious and we can be open-minded, then we can start to march towards the positive.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (19:35):

And the thing I really like about the snap method is I feel like is also progressive. So let's say the first time you stop, and maybe you don't get to name it, but you just stop and you recognize that that's happening, maybe the next time you stop and then you name it. And then once you name it to your point, it's already kind of stuck in your brain and you can go to that next step. So can you talk a little bit about for anyone who is using the SNAP method, how they think about moving forward with the same problem happening over and over again? I found that to be really helpful as I was reading it, because I feel like especially as a female, we say we need to get it right the first time, or we really need to be really great at this. And if we're not, then we have failed. But this isn't a pass fail kind of situation. It's a progression. So can you talk about that a bit?

Erica Anderson Rooney (20:17):

Well, and that's life, right? Life is a progression. It's not a one and done. And I tell people all the time, new level, new devil. So the second you conquer something, we're still growing and changing. There's going to be a whole other level that you have to conquer. And I've got a great story about this. I was actually interviewing business coaches for myself not too long ago, and she was asking me about imposter syndrome. And I was like, you know what? I think I'm really good with that. I've been through it. I have conquered that. And she goes, well, how come you're charging $40,000 for your executive coaching package? I about had a stroke right there. No, there's no way I could do that. Of course, in that moment it's not like it's like, oh, ding, ding Erica, I imposter syndrome. But when you take the time to reflect back, and I'm a big fan of journaling and of reflection and meditation, when you think back on that, and I did because I immediately felt the uncomfortableness in my body, I immediately just felt like constricted and closed off. And that was my signal. And so I went back to it and I was like, what in the world? I have conquered imposter syndrome. But then it's like, okay,

(21:36):

So there I stopped and I named it. Let me ask myself some questions. And I started asking myself, is this thought helpful that I could never charge $40,000? Obviously not. Is it true? Obviously not. There are people out there doing it, but I had to ask myself more questions like, Erica, why do you feel this way right now? Why do you feel like you could never charge $40,000? What in your past makes you feel like this is not something that someone would ever pay you for? And you start to uncover some of the insecurities and the limiting beliefs, and then you pick your pivot. So for me in that instance was I can't charge $40,000 today, but if I get the right business coach and I build it up and I work on my confidence, dang, I sure will. I sure will. One day now, it doesn't have to be today, I didn't turn around and just say, you know what? I'm going to start charging $40,000. That's not how it works. You have to do the work. But I switched my mindset and I pivoted that mindset into one of a complete big old no into one of hope and possibility.

Peter Crosby (22:44):

So listeners get to Erica soon before she snaps out of this particular book.

Erica Anderson Rooney (22:51):

If you want the much more reasonable price, now is the time.

Peter Crosby (22:54):

Exactly. So Erica of the heard it here first. What'd you say, Lauren?

Erica Anderson Rooney (23:00):

You heard it here first. Exactly. Who heard it here first? That's right.

Peter Crosby (23:04):

One of the words you used earlier that I loved was that the ask and answer everything before the pivot opens up space for curiosity, that the noise gets out of the way. And it almost, I think in my experience in trying to deal with these kinds of things, I often think of the word inspiration, that it literally means breathe in. And that through that moment of stop breathe in, if you're in a conversation, then you actually hear that person's response rather than all the noise going on in my head about how much I suck. And then it gives you a moment to kind of really examine almost like it's someone else, and that curiosity of, wow, what's going on there and how could that be different is a really powerful breath that we don't often get to take. And I just thought that that ability to sort of almost step out side yourself and just spend some time with you,

Erica Anderson Rooney (24:10):

The best part about that too

(24:13):

Is it completely removes the judgment. We are so quick to pile on those negative comments and to judge ourselves and even to be like, oh my God, Erica, you shouldn't be having those thoughts. You preach on infinite possibilities. Why are you doing that? I could be hard on myself and do that, but again, not helpful, not true, but when you really look at it through the lens of curiosity, you remove the judgment, you tend to remove the shame too. You guys have read my book. One of the chapters is on alcohol and addiction. I really struggled with wine and drinking, and that carries a lot of judgment and shame. But when I dug deep and I asked and answered a lot of those questions, and I coupled it with a lot of science, you know what I learned? I learned that alcohol's one job is to get you to want more alcohol. So guess what? Mission completed, right? Success, but it wasn't serving me. And so when I removed that lens of judgment and I put the one of curiosity on, I'm actually able to break through those sticky floors way faster than if I was just sitting in that negative judgment of self.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (25:26):

And can we go with that a bit around pivoting, especially because you can pivot outside of just work. You can pivot in your personal life. You can pivot as being a parent, as a friend. So we can't go through every step, but let's focus a bit on pivot and can you give us maybe an example around pivoting outside of the workplace and how to think through that?

Erica Anderson Rooney (25:46):

Yeah, I mean, drinking alcohol, big one for me, right? I quit drinking. That was huge. I've doubled my salary in one ask. That was huge. A lot of the women that I work with is they don't believe they are worthy. They don't believe they're enough. I have a podcast called The Glass Ceiling and Sticky Floor podcast, and I ask every woman on the show, what is the one piece of advice you would tell your younger self? And the majority of them say something along the lines of, I wish I knew my worth. And if you do not know what you are worth, who you are, which is, there's no price tag you can put on that. But if you do not understand that, you will end up in terrible relationships, dead end jobs being trampled on and abused. And so knowing your worth allows you to open up the possibilities for the perfect partner to walk into your life and not accept anything less.

(26:47):

It opens up the possibilities for your best friend to get to know you better, not just know the surface level. So the pivot can happen anywhere. I'm also a huge fitness freak. I started my career in health and wellness is one of my core values, but I tell people all the time, pivoting and fitness is huge. How many times do you hear people say, oh, I don't run, or I don't lift weights, or I don't do Pilates, I can't do that. I'm not bendy. Well, I hate to break it to you, but all of our human bodies are essentially made the same. If you aren't living with some form of disability or something like that, we can all learn to be bendy. And so the pivot really could be in any area of your life. I know I use it all the time in my parenting.

(27:33):

How often do I sit there and I ask myself, am I doing the right things? Am I showing up the right way for my kids? And it's easy to get down on yourself as a mom, but I pick the pivot, especially as a working mom. When can I show up and when can I step away? How am I filling their cup And mine, I no longer have mom guilt when I go on work trips because I pick my pivots. And my pivot is that I am a better mom when I am living in my purpose and in my passion rather than staying at home with my kids all day. I mean, trust me, they would love to be homeschooled. They've asked multiple times, we ain't doing it.

Peter Crosby (28:08):

Talk about imposter syndrome. That would be

Erica Anderson Rooney (28:12):

I'm going to ride that one until the wheels fall off. I'm not a teacher. I don't claim to be, but really, I just don't want to do that.

Peter Crosby (28:20):

Bingo.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (28:21):

It was funny as I was reading the book, so I was ballerina growing up and it was very anaerobic, so I really didn't do a lot of aerobic activities. So high heart rate, high intensity is really hard. So I've always said, I can't run. I'm just not a runner. I can't run to the end of the block. I can't do it. I said this to my husband who's a runner, and he was like, you can't do it yet. And he actually was the one who helped me with the pivot, and I've been able to kind of build out a program and I've gotten to a mile, which I've never been able to do. But it was really interesting because his first reaction was, you haven't done it yet. And that's exactly what you're talking about from a pivot standpoint. And it made me think back and say, I haven't proven that I can't do it, so let me try it, work it out and see what happens. And I've been able to progress and grow, but it was really interesting to have that aha moment to just go, wow, maybe I can run a 5K, maybe not an ultra like him, but a 5K, maybe I can do that.

Peter Crosby (29:13):

Yeah, that's amazing, Lauren. That's awesome.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (29:16):

Yeah,

Peter Crosby (29:17):

Love it. Speaking of awesome, one of the things I think we all need as we go through the snap method is encouragement always at hand is something that I was thinking that because you don't just pivot and it's like done. I mean, as much as the snap is,

Erica Anderson Rooney (29:36):

If only,

Peter Crosby (29:37):

Yes, if only then you can charge a

Erica Anderson Rooney (29:39):

Million dollars. I was going to say then I could $40,000. Okay.

Peter Crosby (29:43):

Exactly. Yeah, just go ahead. And you called it the hell Yeah. Journal. Can you just talk about that?

Erica Anderson Rooney (29:50):

Oh my god, I love a good Hell yeah. Journal. Okay. I've already told y'all I'm a science girl. I like evidence. And one thing I know to be true is that I can ignore, pretend like it never happens or downplay a lot of my wins and successes. It is very easy. Oh, no big deal. And I actually had a friend of mine who called me out one day and she's like, Erica, you say everything is no big deal, but I know you're working your butt off, so what is actually going on? And I realized that I wasn't giving myself credit where credit was due. I was giving everybody else all the praise for doing the exact same things. But when it came to me, I was like, Nope, my expectations are way higher. So I was like, let me just make it really simple for myself.

(30:38):

And I created just in a journal in a regular notebook, what I called the hell yeah, journal. And it simply, I write down one thing that I did that I was super proud of myself for that I didn't want to do it. I didn't think I could do it, whatever that is. And I do one thing a day that I can put in that hell journal that could be practicing a keynote that I really didn't want to practice for because let's face it, practicing sucks. Nobody likes it. It's not fun. It could be that I asked my boss for an increase, you want to know what I did the other day? That was a hell yeah, that I bet y'all are going to laugh at me for. But I was super proud of myself. We had a guy come to the house to fix my garage door because my garage door wouldn't close all the way.

(31:27):

And I have one of those clickers in my car to open and close the garage door. But I also have one of those things on my rear view mirror where you can press the buttons. I could not figure out how to set those buttons. So I just gave up on life with that, and I was using my clicker. And then this garage man walked into my life and I thought, well, I could ask him to program the garage, but y'all, my zone of discomfort is asking for help. I do not like to ask for help. I don't want to make his life more difficult. I don't want to keep him. He's got a lot of jobs to do today. But you know what I did? I was like, okay, I'm going to do it. This is my hard thing. This is what I can put in my hell journal. And I went up to him and I was like, would you be able to help me with this? And guess what? He did it in like 30 seconds flat. And now I just have this amazing convenience. It makes me so fricking happy every time I leave the house or come home, I'm not looking for the clicker. It's just right there in my rear view mirror, the easiest fricking thing.

Peter Crosby (32:26):

A little jolt of joy. Yes,

Erica Anderson Rooney (32:28):

A little jolt of joy. But had I not done that, had I not written that down right now, I go back to this hell yeah, journal when I'm feeling less, when I'm feeling stuck, when I feel like I have imposter syndrome and I use that hell journal as my evidence, as my evidence that I can do hard things as my evidence that I can step outside of my comfort zone and that I can ask people for help. And guess what? They'll do it and my life will get that jolt of joy. And so that is what I really would love to challenge everybody to do is just use your notes app on your phone, get a notebook that you keep in your home and start writing those things down because it is so hard sometimes to quantify the hard things that we do, but we do hard things every day. And this will encourage you to continue to try to do the hard things, but then you have evidence when you're feeling a little less than,

Lauren Livak Gilbert (33:26):

I love how you started it with, it started with a friend kind of calling you out on it and you wrote in your book, it's easier to confront the sticky floors together. And I really loved that because I think it's also, if you can't come up with it, go talk to your best friend because they're the ones that will help you kind of realize some of those really important things. And this is all about how we can lift each other up. So I love that. Hell yeah, journal. And I also really love that you started with your friends because the people around you see you in such a different light, and it can be so enlightening to ask them how they see you.

Erica Anderson Rooney (33:57):

Well, and that's the thing with sticky floors is often we will not recognize that we have them ourselves. I had a woman on my team who always apologized for everything, things that weren't even her fault. She would say, oh, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. Or I'm sorry. And I'm like, stop apologizing. You've done everything right. Yes, I know you're trying to make it easier for other people and to make it more comfortable, but that's not your burden to carry. And she said, I didn't even realize I was doing that. And so sometimes we are so caught up in those things that you don't notice, right? There is no stop and take note, right? Because it's just so ingrained in you that sometimes you need that friend to come up and say like, Hey, Lauren, you're not being your best self right now. What's going on? And talk about it.

Peter Crosby (34:43):

I think about our listeners so much, our audience and the members of the Digital Shelf Institute so much because in their jobs every day as you shop online, I'm presuming. So what a lot of our people are doing is working on the backend, trying to make sure that all the information that you want online, all the right photos and stuff that can tell you, yeah, this is the product that I want. They're working every day to try to make that come to life out in the world. And it's a really hard job and it's changing all the time, and you never feel like you're catching up. And it's super easy to get down on yourself because of the challenges of this job. But I can tell you, our listeners could have huge how hell yeah. Journals because of the way that they work, not only to do their job really well, but try to get everyone around them to wake up and smell the digital coffee. So I encourage our listeners to do that. I know you can fill your book in a year easy.

Erica Anderson Rooney (35:42):

Well, and here's the thing, especially in a role like that, no one is coming to you to say, you know what? I went to shop online on that website and it was a great experience. Thank you. No, it's like nobody calls the customer service line to tell the cable company what a great job they're doing. They call to complain. And so all those backend developers, front end developers, technical architects, anyone who's building things out like that, it can be hard to see the successes sometimes. And so absolutely building those things, especially when it comes to this world that we live in tech where everything is rapidly changing, sometimes your hell, yeah, journal could be, I got through the day, right? And that's okay. Sometimes that is my hell yeah. When I know I've got a full day of meetings and it's one of those, how am I going to get through it? Sometimes you got through it and that's it. And that is a hell yeah.

Peter Crosby (36:32):

Yeah. So I wanted to close out, because Lauren, you and Lauren really started just talking about which is the importance of community in this work and lifting each other back up. There was a great quote that I read in there. We have a duty to reach back, grab hold of the woman behind us and bring her with us. We must pave this road so that others can walk it. Tell me about where you learned how important that was. What makes you think it's a duty? Why

Erica Anderson Rooney (37:07):

Is

Peter Crosby (37:08):

That important

Erica Anderson Rooney (37:08):

To you? I just really believe that we owe it to people to leave the world better than we found it, to leave them better than we found them. And it's about giving generously and not keeping score. And a lot of the women that I encountered in corporate in my early days very much had this mentality of kicking while climbing. There's only room for one of us at the top, and that's going to be me. Or I would have a woman that was farther ahead in the journey. And it was very much this mentality of, well, I had to struggle, so you should too. I only got six weeks of maternity leave, so you should be happy that you have six too. And it's like, well, hold on. Just because you had to do that doesn't mean it's right. Doesn't mean we should have to do that.

(37:59):

One of the things that I'm so passionate about is paid family leave for men and women. I'm not having any more babies, so that is not going to benefit me personally. Let's be clear. But I want my daughter to be able to stay at home with her kids if she decides to have them. I want my son to be able to stay at home with his kids if he has them. And right now, the United States doesn't have that for anybody. And so for me, when I really think about the change that I want to have in this world, that I want to make in this world and the impact that I want to leave, it really is about lifting others while we climb.

Peter Crosby (38:38):

Lauren, you've been building the digital shelf community for a while. What have you found? What do you feel like the mindset is today? Has it maybe changed a bit from when Erica was sort of fighting the kicking and stuff like that? Do you feel like something shifted in the course of Oh, a

Lauren Livak Gilbert (38:55):

Hundred percent. I mean, I think that's the beauty of the community. I mean, when I was on the brand side doing this job, I didn't have other people to talk to. And being able to build the community and be around other people, everyone's just willing to help and to share and to just say, Hey, this is how I'm thinking about it, or here's how I would think about it. And I feel like recently that's changed a lot because it is so hard and we're all realizing that if we don't work together, we will not collectively win. And I think that is a shift that is going to continue to grow. And that's where the community has been so beautiful. I mean, I was at a conference the other day, that's why I sound like this. And I met a bunch of people and they're like, oh my gosh, I'm a part of the DSI thank you for all the content you create.

(39:40):

It really helps me do my job better. And I found someone else from the community that was at the conference. And to me that is the beauty of it. Just connecting people, having conversations, helping beyond just giving them a piece of paper about something that's going on and just really having a real conversation about how did you tackle this? How can you think about this differently? So yeah, I completely agree, Peter. I think it's changed. I think the community aspect is a focus for almost every company and brand now, because we're all realizing that we're all humans and we're all trying to be better, and we can do that collectively.

Peter Crosby (40:15):

And Erica, I think you're working on something in this area, right?

Erica Anderson Rooney (40:19):

I am. And I love that Lauren just ended it with collectively, because I've actually just launched a digital online community for ambitious women in corporate America called Her Collective. And y'all, it is so cool. All of the founders are in now and they are really helping shape and drive this, but it is everything that you ever wish you needed in corporate America that you wish you had. It's for the woman who's reentering the workforce, who's looking to switch industries all the way from entry level to C level because we don't just have a glass ceiling problem, we have a broken rung problem. But it is that place for women to come together to convene, to collaborate, to connect, but overall to share these experiences like partnerships is the word of 2025. And that is how can we come together and partner? You could be in a totally different industry as me, but we can do something together and we can create something together. And so that is what her collective is. It is amazing. We are meeting weekly and doing group coaching sessions. We're having monthly master classes. It is going to be a complete movement that changes the game for women in corporate America. I'm so excited about it.

Peter Crosby (41:27):

So where can people find out more about the collective? Yes,

Erica Anderson Rooney (41:30):

They can hit up that website. It's called join her collective.com. Super easy to remember and you want to join. So that's why is join her collective.com.

Peter Crosby (41:39):

Terrific. I love it. And for glass ceilings and sticky floors by Erica Anderson, Rooney. Erica, thank you so much. It's available. I'm presuming at Amazon. For those of us in digital commerce, that seems like the best place to go and very active on LinkedIn of course. So keep in touch. And Erica, thank you so much for one, for sharing this work with everyone and for particularly coming on and sharing it with our audience. We're really grateful.

Erica Anderson Rooney (42:08):

Oh, oh my gosh. Thank you so much for the opportunity and for chatting. And thank you all for reading and supporting the book. I love that you two read it so quickly and that it was so powerful for you both.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (42:19):

And thank you for making us feel like we're not alone. Really appreciate it. Erica.

Peter Crosby (42:23):

Thanks to Erica for sharing her methods for unlocking our full potential. Bring the SNAP method to the Digital Shelf Summit in New Orleans in April. You will definitely find your people. Register by going to digital shelf summit.com. Thanks for being part of our community.