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Interview

Interview: Traversing the Amazon Jungle, with Jason Boyce, Founder & CEO of Avenue7Media

Amazon - it's a jungle out there for sellers, particularly in these times of economic and supply chain headwinds. Jason Boyce, Founder & CEO of Avenue7Media has spent his entire career driving success on Amazon, as early as 2003 with his own brand, and now for a wide range of Amazon sellers through his digital marketing agency and his book The Amazon Jungle. Jason joined the podcast to offer up to the minute advice for the strategies brands need to not only weather the storms ahead but take advantage of the opportunities for growth that uncertain times can offer.

Show Notes:

The Amazon Jungle: The Truth About Amazon, The Seller's Survival Guide for Thriving on the World's Most Perilous E-Commerce Marketplace:

https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Jungle-Survival-Commerce-Marketplace/dp/1631952803

Transcript:

Peter Crosby:
Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, where we explore brand manufacturing in the digital age.

Peter Crosby:
Hey everyone, Peter Crosby here from the Digital Shelf Institute. Amazon, it's a jungle out there for sellers, particularly in these times of economic and supply chain headwinds, Jason Boyce, founder and CEO of Avenue7Media has spent his entire career driving success on Amazon as early as 2003 with his own brand, and now for a wide range of Amazon sellers through his digital marketing agency and his book, The Amazon Jungle. Jason joined Lauren Livak and me to offer up to the minute advice for the strategies brands need to not only weather the storms ahead, but take advantage of the opportunities for growth that uncertain times can offer.

Peter Crosby:
So Jason Boyce, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. As you know, driving profitability and growth, particularly on Amazon, is on everyone's minds these days. And we are super excited to talk to you about what you're seeing out there. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jason Boyce:
Peter and Lauren, thanks for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here.

Peter Crosby:
You have so much experience in this industry. In fact, you were one of the first sellers on Amazon, which is amazing. You have your own podcast, Day 2 podcast focused on building brands on the Amazon platform, the Amazon ecosystem more broadly, and you've been through a few recessions.

Jason Boyce:
One or two.

Peter Crosby:
One or two. And then you also told us, when we last spoke, that it is your service as a Marine, thank you very much, grateful, that has greatly informed how you drive for success in digital marketing. So just bring us into all of that, that path and what you are seeing out there, and yeah, why you're so excited to be in the midst of this, as you put it in your book, the jungles of Amazon.

Jason Boyce:
Yeah, The Amazon Jungle is real. I started selling e-commerce directly to consumer websites back in 2002. Amazon called me in 2003, asked me to sell my hoops on its platform. And since that date, what a story this has been from a bird's eye view, or even a front row seat, to watching this Amazon story, which really is, in my opinion, the company of a generation, or maybe two or three generations, we've never seen anything quite like it. And I've been able to have the good fortune to be both a seller, where I was a top 200 seller for about 17 years, had an exit, and then realized that I had made a lot of mistakes over 17 years and learned from them and developed these repeatable processes for success on Amazon. And I found it incredibly meaningful to go out and find either young sellers, or new sellers, or existing sellers and help them with some of the lessons I learned the hard way and help them grow on that platform.

Jason Boyce:
It is absolutely a company that will be studied in MBA programs for the next 50 years. We've never really seen anything like it, Peter, and again, I just feel lucky to be a part of their growth pattern there, no matter how small, it's a trillion dollar valuation company, and it's seemingly they're involved in almost everything in our daily lives, which is both exciting, but also can be troubling at the same time. So I walk this fine line between being a happy Amazon consumer, being frustrated with Amazon when they don't treat small businesses or brands the way I believe they should be treated, but also standing in awe and watching this amazing story unfold right before our eyes.

Peter Crosby:
Yeah. We'll see what they do with healthcare, right?

Jason Boyce:
Look, if you're an Amazon investor and you look at the online market share that they have, which is more than half of the online market share, some would say 56, 58% of all goods sold online in the United States go through amazon.com. About 70% of product searches begin on amazon.com, forget about Google. And then if you go and search on Google, Amazon's links are all over the first page of search results. And so they are everywhere. They are huge. They're not going anywhere. And, yeah, it's really incredible. It's really an incredible company.

Lauren Livak:
As one of the first sellers on Amazon I'm curious, the experience and how it changed over the years. Are there any things that have stayed the same as a theme when you think of the PDP and how you're searching for things and what you're viewing? I'm curious if there are things that have stayed the same or some, I'm sure dramatic differences?

Jason Boyce:
Lauren, I will never forget the phone call that I received back in 2003 from an engineer who was just put in charge of the sports and outdoors category, who was saying, hey, we want you to sell your basketball hoops on Amazon. And I was like, what, what do you mean basketball hoops? You guys, you don't sell basketball hoops. I just bought a VHS tape from you. What are you talking about? And they're like, oh yeah, we're launching a marketplace. He literally said these words, "Someday we want to be like eBay." How funny is that? They just thought-.

Peter Crosby:
How the tables have turned.

Jason Boyce:
Yeah, that's right. The tables have turned and flipped upside. As eBay shrinks right now, Amazon continues to gain market share, even as we are staring at a potential recession. It's a pretty incredible story.

Lauren Livak:
And so we talked about The Amazon Jungle, and I love it. It's the name of your book, The Amazon Jungle. And you spend a lot of time working with brands, the ins and outs, and it's become harder and harder just with the state of the world. Inflation, supply chain issues. You name it, I could go on for probably about 10 minutes. Can you tell us a bit about what you're seeing brands do to really pivot with all these changes and stay competitive on Amazon?

Jason Boyce:
Yeah, so many brands are in survival mode. And, Lauren, I just want to go back to your previous question and comment, and then I'll come back and talk more specifically about what brands are doing today, which of the brands that we work with that we see are having success on the platform and some of the steps that we help them achieve in order to win on that platform. But boy, what a difference from 2003 to 2022. In the early days I really enjoyed working with Amazon because you could pick up the phone and say, hey engineer, you can't call this, the basketball hoop this, you can't call it this, you can't make your category named this. It doesn't make any sense to people who buy sporting goods. And the engineer would laugh and say, well, I never played sports. I'm like, obviously, or you wouldn't have named it these ridiculous names. Let's work on this taxonomy. So you-.

Peter Crosby:
Yeah. There was a book that I read, this is back in probably the early nineties, it was called The Inmates Are Running the Asylum. And it was the first big thinking around that you actually need user designers and real people doing this. You can't rely on engineers. It is nothing against engineers, I adore them. But to your point, I didn't play sports. You need to get closer to the consumer to be able to pull this off. And certainly, this is not surprising to anyone here, but it's amazing to see how far we've come, I think.

Jason Boyce:
Yeah, absolutely. And then the biggest changes, Lauren, that I've seen on the Amazon platform is when I... First of all, I could talk to somebody who could get things done and who could cross department lines five, six, seven deep, however many are necessary in order to solve problems. And like with any business that goes from a billion to $600 billion in GMV a year, scaling becomes a problem. Departments become much more siloed, Amazon as a whole is the second largest employer in the country. And I think they're the most understaffed company anywhere, because they rely heavily on artificial intelligence bots, AI to manage a lot of the influx of work. AI bots, in my opinion, many times, cause more problems than they solve. At least that's the way it feels like sitting in the seller seat. And so it has been a massive shift.

Jason Boyce:
I would also say, and apologies ahead of time for current Amazon employees, but there was more humility and willingness to work and more appreciation for what the third party seller brought to Amazon. And I'll just say this, the third party sellers, the Amazon brands that have been selling on Amazon since 2003, have made Amazon what it is today. Their technology is bar none. It's better than anyone out there. However, third party sellers deserve more credit than what they get from Andy Jassy and the crew over at Amazon. And so in the early days, there was a lot more of that. And then fast forward to today, you send a ticket to seller support about a problem that you're having with your account and you get an answer for a question you didn't ask. It's really laughable how bad Amazon seller support is. And you need agencies who know the system inside and out many times in order to just solve the simplest of problems, which creates a lot of frustration.

Peter Crosby:
I'm feeling the perspective of a steel eyed Marine in your evaluation of Amazon.

Jason Boyce:
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Lauren Livak:
I remember, there was one time in my past life where we submitted a title to Amazon and they'd changed the brand name. And I was like-.

Peter Crosby:
Excuse me.

Lauren Livak:
... you can't change the brand name, but we couldn't get anyone on the phone. And I was like, this is a really important thing. We'll get fined if things don't match and you're changing the whole entire brand. And I remember it was just so challenging to even call our contact to get that change. And obviously it eventually worked. But to your point, it's so difficult for even really important things to get changed on Amazon.

Peter Crosby:
Well, let's move on to-.

Jason Boyce:
Yeah, Lauren shameless plug for Avenue7Media, if you're listening and you're having that problem, give us a call, Avenue, the 7media.com. Our team of a lot of ex Amazon folks, we can solve those kinds of problems that will literally make you want to pull your hair out. But, to your point, Lauren, it's incredibly frustrating and it's illogical that a company as sophisticated as Amazon with AWS, with its technology knowhow, can't solve quickly, or allow sellers to solve quickly the simplest of problems. And it can be frustrating.

Peter Crosby:
Well, let's move to the things that we know sellers can do, what you're helping your clients do every day, and what they're doing as Lauren mentioned in this inflationary supply chains environment. What are you seeing brands do to stay competitive and drive growth and profitability on Amazon?

Jason Boyce:
There's a lot of YouTube videos out there and TikTok videos about how to become an Amazon millionaire with all these tricks and things like this. But what's interesting to me, Peter, is that blocking and tackling is sometimes a third to 40% of the battle on Amazon. And what do I mean by blocking and tackling? Staying in stock. In this environment with so many supply chain issues, the brands that are staying in stock are being rewarded handsomely by the Amazon search algorithms, the brands that keep their listing active, the brands that have pricing parity across multiple channels. Because if Amazon sees you selling for less on walmart.com, they're going to punish your listing and you're going to lose revenue quickly. So pricing parity across channels. And then that third part of the blocking and tackling, we call this, we put this under the heading of product availability or presence.

Jason Boyce:
Funny thing about Amazon, if you're out of stock, if your listing is suppressed, or if you have 35 other sellers attaching to your listing and undercutting you on price and driving the retail pricing integrity into the dirt, you cannot win. And so I know there's a lot of fancy tricks out there. I tend to ignore most of them. Half of the battle to 30% of the battle is about just making sure that you have a good listing, that you're telling the right message, the benefits of the product, and that you're actually searchable and available to purchase. It's as simple as that, Peter. Obviously there's about 2000 things that go on behind the hood to make all that available, but those are the brands right now that are doing well. The ones that are kicking and screaming and fighting hard to get as much inventory and stock as they can. Those are the ones that are doing well.

Peter Crosby:
And I would love to dig in on this channel control issue, the being-.

Jason Boyce:
Sure.

Peter Crosby:
... pricing being cut out from under you. What are people doing about that? What are the hard decisions that need to get made and stuck to in order to achieve that kind of control across your channels?

Jason Boyce:
Peter, it's a great question. This is a whole hour long topic. We can come back and talk about this one in a deeper dive.

Peter Crosby:
They take you up on that.

Jason Boyce:
In the 21st century, in the digital age, if you are a brand, you must control distribution and you must have channel control. On the Amazon platform we talk to brands every day, and we say, you should be the only seller of your product on Amazon. If you can get away with it, you also shouldn't sell to Amazon because you can control your destiny better through the seller central platform rather than the vendor central platform. So, let's start with that. Now, let's say that you launch on Amazon and you have good intentions, and then all of a sudden people start attaching to your listings. So step one, and having what we call channel control, and my good friend, James Thompson and Whitney Gibson from Vorys. They wrote the book on this, literally-.

Peter Crosby:
They did.

Jason Boyce:
... So I'm borrowing a lot of their language as I describe this, they literally wrote the book, it's on my shelf. I think I have a copy.

Peter Crosby:
No, no. We had James on the podcast. You have to, he knows what he's talking about.

Jason Boyce:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so, you have to have an effective policy, selling policy or reseller's policy in place that allows you to overcome the first sale doctrine, which says, if you buy anything for any price, you can sell it for whatever you want. It's a federal law. And so in order to overcome that Whitney Gibson over at Vorys, they developed a lot of case law that helps one overcome and control what I call unauthorized sellers. So, if they're getting product through the back door of one of your retailers, if they're getting product that's unmanaged and controlled through distributor network, if they're buying it on the retail shelves at a deep discount and then reselling it, and they're not authorized, you have to have a solid reseller policy in place that can create what's called a material difference that will help you knock off those third party sellers.

Jason Boyce:
Half the battle is identifying who they are. And then the second is letting them know that they're violating the policy. And then if necessary, you can let Amazon know, hey, this product is being sold at a material difference. We, the brand, will not honor a warranty, for example, if these sellers sell on your platform. So, it's not an authorized seller. Not that Amazon cares about authorized seller. What they care about is that the experience that their shopper will get will be lessened if they buy it from an unauthorized seller. Peter, that's a lot to unpack. I crammed a lot into that description, but that in a nutshell is the cliff notes version, and every brand must be tough, they must be diligent and they must have the intestinal fortitude to cut off customers who are not abiding by channel control. If you don't do that, you'll fail today's-.

Peter Crosby:
Well, and that's the thing, often, and tell me if this is true, my impression is that often it's, the call is coming from inside the house. I sold to this distributor and now this distributor is undercutting me. Is that true?

Jason Boyce:
It happens all the time. A brand will sell to a distributor, they're doing millions of dollars of business with that distributor. They've got a 20 year relationship with the distributor and the distributor is probably telling them, oh yeah, we control the channel. But if they send that product out to a hundred different of their customers, it's like putting it into the winds. You never know where it's going to end up.

Peter Crosby:
Yeah.

Jason Boyce:
And so there are good distributors out there who will diligently enforce a brand's policy. But imagine if you're a distributor and you're covering hundreds of brands, is it really realistic to think that a distributor can control the distribution for your product? That's a lot of work and they become a law firm instead of what they really want to do, which is to get product out there and sell it.

Peter Crosby:
But when those violations are happening, what do you advise your clients to do with distributors that just are not working with them to solve this problem? Do you have an example of a client that you've seen that has dealt with this problem effectively?

Jason Boyce:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think before I answer the question, Peter, a little setup is required. I talk to distributors who come to me and say, hey, I've been selling other people's stuff for a long time. We want to start our own private label brand. And then I talk to brands on a regular basis who come and say, hey, we've been wholesaling forever. We know that the future is direct to the consumer. We want to be able to work with you to sell directly on Amazon. And so from both ends of the spectrum, Peter, we're taking calls of people that understand that building your own brand and having some portion of your sales through a DTC channel is the future. And so that's the setup, Peter.

Peter Crosby:
Yeah.

Jason Boyce:
Now back to your question, we've got, one of our larger clients is in the automotive space and they sell diagnostic tools and they have 30 year relationships with distributors. And I spoke to them in year one, I went to their headquarters and I sat down with them and I said, look, you need to stop selling to distributors. And they're like, what are you talking about? We did tens of millions of dollars with them last year. We can't just cut them off. And I said, look, you need to control your own destiny. And there's too many sellers. You have no pricing integrity, you have no brand control. It's a complete SHIT show. And if you don't do something about it, now you're going to get passed up by brands who are doing it directly to consumers. And so to their credit, I went back and they said, I'm not working with this guy, Jason, he's crazy. No way we're [inaudible 00:19:10] that business.

Jason Boyce:
A year later, I take a call from them again and they're like, hey, we want to talk to you again. We've started the process to off board distributors. And let me tell you it's been painful. We've had people crying on the other line because we've had long time relationships, but at the end of the day, they couldn't control our channel. It took us a while to digest what you were telling us, but you were right. And now we want you to come in and offer to sell directly on the Amazon platform. Now they've made up almost all of that lost revenue. And I told them this too, going back to year one, I said, listen, if you go to a distributor or you go to a customer and you tell them, you may not sell on amazon.com, the ones who pitch the biggest fight are the ones that are only selling on amazon.com. And if that's all they're doing to you, they're not giving you any value at all, because that should be your channel and you should control that channel.

Jason Boyce:
And so look, this is a very brave CEO. I have a tremendous amount of respect. It's a family business, he's been in the business for 30 years. He innovated the business when he came in and was just an amazing entrepreneur, made a very difficult decision and has been rewarded handsomely. I've got scores of examples like that, Peter, but it is, I'm going to admit this freely, that is a very hard decision. When you're looking at your revenue channels, and all of a sudden you're going to just run a red line through a very big revenue channel in order to regain control of your brand, that is terrifying. You are looking over the cliff, looking down and it's terrifying. So I applaud anyone like my friend here and client who made that difficult decision, and I can tell you, it was a rough patch for about 18 months. But as they look in their rear view mirror, they're very happy that they made that decision.

Lauren Livak:
And to that point, Jason, it is scary, it's absolutely terrifying, but are there questions that brands should be asking the distributor that can help them make this decision or can help show those red flags that they're like, Ooh, maybe I should consider this and start that journey.

Jason Boyce:
Well, I think it starts back with what we were talking about, with the channel control policy, is a good attorney to lay down a rock solid reseller policy in customer policy. Let folks know certain channels their customers may not sell on. And start there, start building it, start policing either with a law firm or specialist firm in order to identify who it is that's mucking up your sales channel on the Amazon platform. Start there, identify who they are, have conversations with the distributor, get a new agreement in place with the distributor. Many times that's when the distributor will see the writing on the wall and know what's coming. And look, I work with a company that's in the pet category, who does the majority of their business through distributors, and they do a fabulous job of making sure that sellers aren't selling on the Amazon platform.

Jason Boyce:
Frankly, I don't know how they do it. I wouldn't want that job as a distributor to be able to control it. And so on the flip side, here's an example where the brand literally cannot cut off that distributor, because you think about it, think about all the mom and pop veterinary clinics across the country. You need a distributor in order to be able to sell to that group. And there was no way they were going to cut them off, but because they got a good policy, because they've leveraged the relationship and because the distributor is really good at what they do in terms of controlling distribution, it works great. And you know what? They're the only seller on Amazon and they're top 10 in two or three of their products right now. So really good stuff.

Lauren Livak:
And you've already mentioned this a bit, but I want to reiterate, this doesn't happen overnight, this is a process. This is, do your due diligence, start to have the conversations, make the decision. It takes a lot of time and preparation. So I just want to say that for our listeners, it's not like to tell your distributors you're leaving tomorrow, it's a multi-year effort where you go through this. Would you agree?

Jason Boyce:
I would a hundred percent agree. In this digital age you think you can snap your fingers and make change happen. It's a process, and it should be as carefully thought out, the exit or the adjustment with your distributor relationship should be very carefully thought out, very carefully managed. You should assign a leader within your organization to help manage that process so that it doesn't become someone's part-time job. That's how important it is. And then over time you can, like our pets client, you can work with the distributor who's able to handle the channel or you can do like our automotive client did and said there's no way these distributors can control this. We're cutting them off and we're changing our model. And so it's definitely a process, but I will say this, Lauren, on the flip side, if you don't start working on your own direct to consumer channel, and I definitely think Amazon is a direct to consumer channel. If you don't start working on it now, what can feel very fast is when the competition eats you alive.

Jason Boyce:
Remember Jeff Bezos said, "Your margin is my opportunity." In order for that distributor to make money, they need to build in more margin. And so folks that don't have those margin concerns are going directly potentially with better pricing. They have a direct relationship with the consumer. They're listening to what the consumer with the credit card who's buying their product is saying and making adjustments to their product. That's something that's really hard to do if you're only selling to distributors, you don't get that one-on-one relationship with the folks with the credit card who are buying your product, and they're adjusting and adapting to this 21st century world. And if you're not doing that, what can come fast, Lauren, is you being named irrelevant in your category.

Peter Crosby:
So Jason, to close out, moving from the macro strategy of channel control to the micro strategy of weathering and hopefully winning in this recessionary environment, what are the things that your advice you would offer to our listeners of some creative and effective ways to make the most of this time coming up and to make sure that you're leading your category on [inaudible 00:25:41]?

Jason Boyce:
Sure. Peter, look, I'm a big believer, in any difficult time there's always opportunity. Interestingly enough, Walmart data just came out and said that their profit targets are much better than they thought. Why is that? Because more premium customers are coming to the Walmart brand and they're buying groceries because Walmart has lower prices on groceries and inflation is hurting them. And so there's always, maybe I'm a little bit of an optimist here, there's always a silver lining in any difficult headwind story like looking at a recession, but here's what I've experienced over my 20 years of selling e-commerce. And I lived through the 2008 crisis. And I was selling stuff that nobody needed. When they cut their budget, my pool tables and my ping pong tables and those products became very low on the priority list.

Peter Crosby:
Yeah.Yeah.

Jason Boyce:
And so we heard crickets after 30 to 60 days when that crisis hit its peak. And so, but here's what we witnessed. The first thing we did is we got our red pen out and if we could cut $10 a month, we cut $10 a month. If it wasn't driving revenue, if it wasn't directly involved with driving revenue or keeping the business alive, keeping the blood flow pumping with oxygen to the brain, we cut it. And we tried to conserve as much cash as we could. And then we doubled down on our sales efforts. Now you think, why would you do that when the market itself is shrinking? But this has been our experience. There's a lot of pretenders out there, especially in this Amazon game who don't really know business, don't really know what they're doing, and in times of crisis tend to go away. They just can't make it. They can't survive, or they get frightened because they're out there reading the news headlines. And remember the news headline folks just want this Shakespearean tragedy to report it.

Jason Boyce:
So they're buying into what the headlines are saying and they're freaking out and they're like, I'm pulling up chalks, I'm done with this. So in my experience, every time I went through a recession, both as a seller and even during the 2020 COVID crisis, there was always opportunity. Cut costs, focus on sales, because even though the overall market will shrink, I have found that a lot of pretenders die off and you can eat their market share if you're providing value to your consumers, et cetera, just give you two quick stories to illustrate this.

Jason Boyce:
We sold home wreck equipment, it was our top selling category during the 08 crisis. And so we changed all of our marketing to a staycation, because people weren't going to pay for plane tickets to go on expensive vacations. And we started marketing and email marketing stay home, instead of spending a fortune going out to some far off destination for your vacation, do a staycation, buy a game that not only works for your vacation so that you guys can play it at home, but also it will be there long term, get your kids off the video game. So we really doubled down on our marketing efforts to let our consumers know that we were aware of what was going on, and we were providing solutions during this difficult time.

Jason Boyce:
Secondly, during the 2020 crisis, we had a very... One of my favorite clients. They were selling packing cubes. Speaking of travel, in 2020 the travel stopped, no one needed packing cubes to put into their suitcase because no one, the entire world stopped traveling overnight. And so their business tanked. So what did they do? They could have folded up their tent and quit. What did they do? They got smart and they said, hey, how about we transition? We have the same materials, we have a really cool, beautiful design. Moms love us. Homemakers love us. Let's create packing cubes or storage cubes for the home that are cool and sexy. And so they transitioned their packing cubes to doing more home storage, because people were home more often in the 2020 crisis. And they had a little bit more spare time on their hands to clean out the closet and that's how they survived. And so I think there's always a silver lining to a difficult story. You just have to be open-minded to find it.

Peter Crosby:
I love that. So much of it, it always comes back to the consumer-.

Jason Boyce:
That's right.

Peter Crosby:
... thinking about what is it in this time? And it's an emotional experience for consumers that they're going through right now. It's a potential change of means that they're going through right now. And to be able to think about that creatively and particularly in this market, Amazon is probably your best channel for testing those things. So you don't necessarily need to change the whole business in a moment, try it, get feedback, is that what you see these clients doing?

Jason Boyce:
Oh yeah. Amazon is a great test bed, because you can launch a product and immediately start getting real customer feedback in the form of product ratings, product reviews. If customers are returning it, they have to give you an answer for why they're returning it. All of that data is gold. It's better than a focus group. In fact, I think the 21st century focus group that works certainly in the products games is launching it on Amazon and reading all that great data directly from the people with the credit card. I used to do focus groups when I was in college, because they paid me 50 bucks to go watch these shows. I was going to Cal State Northridge in LA and I'd watch these shows. And they would pay me $50 every time I'd leave and that I could eat for a week. And I never, in a million years, would've watched the show in the first place. If I'm flipping through the channels back in the day, I never would've stopped on the shows that they were asking me to review, but I was giving my feedback. That's terrible.

Peter Crosby:
Yes.

Jason Boyce:
That's terrible feedback. And I'm sure it cost them a fortune to put that together. The only one that was happy was really the marketing firm that was making money on doing it. But how great is it that we live in a world where you can get real world information from people with the credit card who have invested in your product with an expectation that was either met or not met so that they can tell you how you can improve your product. Again, that goes back to that direct to consumer channel, even if it's 10% of your business, 20% of your business, it's so critical to growing your entire business. In today's world, you've got to have that direct to consumer relationship.

Peter Crosby:
Well, there's no question that it is a jungle out there and it's going to be that way always because that's what commerce is like, it's just the landscape keeps changing a bit, but it's there. And so we really appreciate having you on to guide us through that jungle and appreciate just the way you've been able to bring your experience to life for our listeners. Thank you so much, Jason.

Jason Boyce:
Peter, Lauren, thanks so much. I love your podcast. Keep up the great work and thanks for having me.

Peter Crosby:
Thanks again to Jason for joining us. We put the link to his book in our show notes, of course, available on amazon.com. Become a member of the DSI, digitalshelfinstitute.org. And thanks as always for being part of our community.