Your PDP Imagery Should Be a Revenue Booster, with Dave Feinleib, Founder & CEO at It’sRapid

Transcript

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Lauren Livak Gilbert (00:00):

Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, where industry leaders share insights, strategies, and stories to help brands win in the ever-changing world of commerce.

Peter Crosby (00:22):

Hey everyone. Peter Crosby here from The Digital Shelf Institute. Today, PDP Imagery packs more of a punch in search and conversion than ever before. As the carousel becomes a full funnel storyteller for both humans and agents. Dave Feinleib, founder and CEO at It’sRapid, brought Lauren Livak Gilbert, and me, a set of New Year's resolutions for your image strategy to power up their top line revenue impact. Dave, welcome back to the podcast. We're so delighted to have you return.

Dave Feinleib (00:54):

Great to be here. Lauren and Peter, always wonderful to be on the show.

Peter Crosby (00:59):

Well, today we're going to dive into the PDP, and as we know, the PDP is important for SEO and conversion, but it's also going to continue to be a very important piece of where the data's going to come from for the new genic experiences. So it continues to be a hot topic, and we're going to go right square at the image carousel today. So many people look at pictures over anything else, and they're really doing more jobs than they ever used to on the PDP, so we wanted to catch up all the data that you get around this. I think this will be a great episode for our folks that are always wanting to stay on top of this. So what are you seeing changing about the images on PDPs from all that work and data that you have?

Dave Feinleib (01:47):

Yeah, the pdp, we've seen it evolve so much. I think the big thing, if I were to net it out, is that the leading brands we work with are really thinking about the images in particular as revenue drivers. It used to be that I would get a pack shot up, maybe I'd have a few stock images to go with it. Now, brands are thinking about these assets very strategically and thinking what's the whole story that all of these images can tell both to the shopper and as you were talking about to the algorithm. So these images are really taking on a much bigger role as revenue drivers, and there's a few reasons for that. Like you said, we're all on our mobile devices, so we're scrolling through. We've got shorter attention spans now. Attention spans are probably shorter than they've ever been before, and what's really changing is that these algorithmic engines, chat, GPT and so on, can actually read the images and figure out what kinds of images are, they can look at the text in the images. And so not only are images for the shopper, but they're also informing that the algorithms are making. And so this is really just changing the nature of discovery, changing the nature of how to stand out on the digital shelf, and then it's driving conversion both through buyer confidence and trust signals, the whole story, but also how brands show up in these engines that really give recommendations and not just search results. So a real step change in how images are being used as revenue drivers and not just as creative assets.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (03:35):

And I feel like we've seen a really big change in terms of image on text. If I think back to my brand days where Target didn't allow words on imagery, that has changed. Now the words on your images are being indexed by LLMs to then inform more discovery and more consumer decisions. And that has been a really big shift and what you need to put on those images has also changed. I would love to hear your perspective because from my brand world, I'm like, oh my God, this is so different than what I used to do.

Dave Feinleib (04:08):

Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. And I think you're absolutely right. This is a real change in both how the retailers are working with images, but also how brands need to then produce images. And you're exactly right, you had retailers where text was not allowed, your images would get rejected if you had text in it, and now in some cases it's a requirement for mobile ready hero images. And then if you look at that entire set of images, it's not just a lifestyle shot showing your product, it's a lifestyle shot, and then it's a feature benefit. It's a use case, it's a comparison table right in the image. It's nutritional information, not in eight point font, but really easy to read. And so these leading retailers and brands are really changing how the images are being used. Absolutely,

Peter Crosby (05:05):

And it seems like in the SEO world, SEO kind of in some ways killed the product page because people are ending up just keyword stuffing the crap out of things, which makes it not very hospitable to a human, but you feel like they're finding the balance so that, and not hopefully, excuse the pun, but over indexing

Dave Feinleib (05:28):

On

Peter Crosby (05:29):

Telling the agents what they want them to know.

Dave Feinleib (05:31):

Yeah, this is a challenge. You've got to optimize for the shopper because you want to give them the right info. And of course you want to drive conversion and you've got to optimize for the changing nature of the algorithm When it comes to copy, like you're saying, a lot of the bullets we've seen the last few years, the copy, if you really look at that copy, it's been over optimized for keywords. And in some ways shoppers probably said, Hey, I'm just seeing a lot of keywords in here and I'm going to look at the images now. I think brands are finding that balance because they know shoppers are looking at the images, they know the algorithms are looking for recommendation material in the copy, and so they can go a little lighter on straight keyword optimization and they can have copy that's more compelling for the shopper and the algorithm.

(06:24):

And likewise, they can have images that are more compelling for the shopper, and the shoppers are scrolling through those images really quickly and they got to get that info that they used to look for in the copy. They're now expecting to find that information right in the images. So I do think brands are finding the balance and retailers are helping with that because they care about the shopper experience and they've kind of, as Lawrence said, opened up what you're able to do now. And so brands are taking advantage of that when it comes to the carousel.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (06:59):

So Dave, given what you've learned, what are some of the top things that brands should actually be focusing on in terms of imagery right now?

Dave Feinleib (07:06):

So we have this great tool called optics. We used it to go out and usually we're doing analysis of individual items or categories and things like that. We actually went out and did a whole analysis of thousands and thousands of images, and we put together these sort of six new year's resolutions that come to this thinking of what can I do from a strategic perspective if I'm a best in class brand? And so I'll list these out real quick and I know we're going to dive into some of 'em, but first off, make images discoverable by ai. As you mentioned, the LLMs and so on are able to read the images and understand them. Design mobile first. Mobile used to be this afterthought. I'd actually have all my images up, I might even have a product listing live, and then a brand would come back around and update for mobile.

(07:58):

Now, mobile's a requirement. These mobile hero images are requirement with a lot of retailers and leading brands are really thinking mobile first. I know these images are going to be viewed on a phone or a tablet or what have you. So let me bring that into the whole workflow. Answer real buyer questions. So I used to look at the copy, but take that opportunity, put the text in the images, put the comparison table, call out the features, look at seasonality as a growth lever. I think this is something brands have always aspired to do. We've talked about it in the past, but you truly are seeing leading brands refresh their images now throughout the year for those seasonal moments. Look at the entire image set, so not just a pack shot and a couple of stock photos to go with it. What is the whole story that I'm going to tell those images and then prove out the claims visually? It's great to optimize the copy. You do need to do that, but again, you can really show that with the right imagery and the right content in the image carousel. So AI all the way through having the right info in the images

Peter Crosby (09:14):

I'm interested in, we've been talking a lot about how the agent conversation for shopping or the chatbot, whatever sort of context is collapsing the funnel. And it can happen now in moments and then maybe with zero click, depending on where you're at, is there some degree to which that sort of image set system you were talking about could in some way kind of accomplish to the same thing, but on the PDP itself that by the time you get through, you may probably got your top FAQs answered. You know what I mean? I'm just wondering if you think of it that way at all.

Dave Feinleib (09:57):

Yeah, a hundred percent. I think images used to be just show me the product and I know what product I'm going to buy now, that entire sequence of image can walk me as a shopper through that full funnel experience. Here's the product, here's what you need to know about the product. Here are some trust signals, it's certified, it's these other, it's number one in the category, things like that. Then it can show me a comparison. How does this product stack up relative to the competition? Why should I buy this product? So you can take the shopper through that entire flow over the course of 5, 6, 7 images, and now they're really have the info they need to make a purchase decision. They've built up confidence and trust in that product and that brand and all of this in just a matter of seconds over these series of images. So yeah, a hundred percent. I think it's really possible to do something very different with the image carousel today. Then you could the last few years

Lauren Livak Gilbert (11:07):

And a term I've heard used, I was just going to say, Peter is story selling, right? You're using your carousel to tell a story to get to the sale, and it's a good kind of reframe for brands as they're even thinking about the order of images. If you're buying a water bottle for example, how much does it hold? Might be the first question they want answered, not the last question. So I just think for the brands listening, if you are selling a product and you're figuring out your image carousel, what is the story you want to tell and what questions does your consumer have first versus second when thinking about the product?

Dave Feinleib (11:45):

Yeah, it's so true. And there's an example that comes to mind, which is a leading infant formula brand. They actually went out and did some testing in this space and tried different image orders, and they figured out, okay, if we have the images in this order, if the images tell this information, and to your point, this story, those products that we have optimized that way are going to convert at a higher rate than the products we don't. And as a shopper, you think about it and you go, yeah, I am going through this on my phone and I'm looking for these key pieces of info, and if I don't have to comb through the text to read all of that on my mobile device, and I can see it in these images with just a few seconds, that's clearly going to help make for a better purchase decision than if you don't tell that story.

Peter Crosby (12:38):

So since we're on it, why don't we dive into that topic so you have some advice about what the order of the images should be. So lay that out for our listeners.

Dave Feinleib (12:49):

Yeah, so I think what we found, again, we analyze lots of images. Of course, it varies by category. If you're selling infant formula, you're selling back to school items, you're selling tents, whatever it is, the ordering and the information you want to get across is going to be different for each of those categories. But in general, we're trying to go from attention to understanding, trust, confidence, and ultimately conversion. So if we think about that set of images, it starts with the hero image, a hero image. You want it to be mobile optimized for the specific retailer. You want to have key benefits. So really the number one reason to buy, you want to feature breakdown, what makes this product better. You want to put that image in context so the shopper can visualize how would I use that product? How does it fit into my life and the purchase that I want to make, how to you want size, scale, references, proof points like comparison, tables, ingredients and materials, if those are relevant for your product. And as I mentioned before, trust and credibility because shoppers are looking at a very large number of products now, and they need these trust signals to help them decide whether this is the right product to buy. So each image in the carousel should focus on one of these. We do see some brands trying to accomplish 2, 3, 4 things in one image, and that results in a very crowded image. The great thing about the carousel on the PDP is you've got 5, 6, 7 images that you can work with in sequence to get that story across.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (14:32):

And Dave, we already talked about this a bit, which was kind of making the images discoverable on ai. So what are the best practices for that, whether it's text, a lot of text, small text,

Dave Feinleib (14:45):

Big text,

Lauren Livak Gilbert (14:45):

Give us some context there.

Dave Feinleib (14:47):

Yeah, yeah, I think the best way to think about it is that these AI engines are pretty smart in how they evaluate the images. So if you rewind a year or two, it's possible you could put some hidden text or something like that into an image. But if you look at the engines as they operate today, they're really able to see the content of the images. They're able to read the messaging and understand all that. So when it comes to best practices, the right thing for the shopper also tends to be the right thing to do for the AI engines. And so that might be something let's say in the beer category, maybe a shopper's going to go in and say, what beer do you recommend for the Super Bowl party putting together? And now they're going to make a decision between the 12 ounce and the 16 ounce and the six pack and the 12 pack.

(15:45):

So having that text information and those different can sizes in the imagery is not only going to help the shopper make the right decision about the skew, but also is going to inform the AI engines. Those are really, really good examples. The other thing you want to be thinking about is the nature of the purchase path in these AI engines. I'm probably not just asking a single question, I'm asking for a recommendation. And so maybe I'm asking about supplies for back to school, and so now I have an opportunity to take something that's seasonal, which is back to school, put that into my set of images, and now I'm going to be much more relevant for the results that rufuss or chat GPT or Sparky surface when shoppers are putting their queries into these engines. So those are a few best practices that you can apply, really have the right info in the images, have relevant info, and then think about opportunities to stand out as a category leader. Seasonality is a really good way to do that.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (16:53):

And what about ratings and reviews? Because I've seen a lot of people kind of pull a positive rating review and put it up top in the carousel because it gives that to your point before level of trust. Have you seen that be super helpful as well?

Dave Feinleib (17:06):

Yeah, I'll give you two examples there. One is what you said, which is, hey, bring the ratings and reviews forward in the image carousel, the image carousel is at the top of the page. Ratings and reviews tend to be further down. They're getting summarized now. And so if you take an image and you take specific texts that you want to highlight with this ability to now include text on the images, you can make this very visual. You could show the five stars, you can show a quote, you could put that on top of a lifestyle image that can be very compelling to build trust with the shopper, but also to make the product approachable. There's the flip side of that, A brand that we work with, they did an AI analysis of lots and lots of reviews, and they found that there was an issue with one of their products that shoppers were consistently mentioning.

(18:01):

And so their approach wasn't to just update some text, they actually created some new images to address that issue so the shoppers would know what they're getting when they bought this product, and now it's addressed as the third or fourth image in this image sequence. Their reviews actually went up from the mid three range back into the four range. So they saw they were at the four range, they declined, they put in these new images, and then they were able to bring their review score up. And that's because shoppers knew what to expect just from looking at the images.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (18:37):

I love that example specifically because, so I just bought a house and I'm buying a lot of things on Amazon, and we bought this trash can that's like dog proof and we could not figure out how to put it together, but I went back to the image carousel and it was the fifth image, and I was like, oh, so easy. It was very confusing. So that is a perfect example of how it worked out.

Dave Feinleib (18:57):

Yeah, a hundred percent. And the imagery is so compelling because you look through it, you found the answer, and you're off to the races.

Peter Crosby (19:05):

I love smart marketers. I know.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (19:07):

Otherwise I would've left a bad review.

Dave Feinleib (19:10):

And congratulations on the house.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (19:12):

Thank you. Thank

Peter Crosby (19:13):

You. Let the buying season begin. So I'd love to dig in a little bit more on the seasonality piece. Can you talk a bit about how do you plan around that? What makes it easier for people to do more seasonal content now than maybe before? Do you see York clients' ability to be able to kind of do these things more rapidly, it's rapid and have a process for doing it that's manageable to

Dave Feinleib (19:51):

Be able to take that growth

Peter Crosby (19:52):

Lever?

Dave Feinleib (19:53):

A hundred percent. I think seasonality has always been an aspiration of brands. They want to find ways to be relevant and have fresh content throughout the year. So when you're searching, you can see that the product is relevant for you and maybe you're thinking about a certain occasion, you see an image related to that occasion, maybe that helps you with your purchasing decision. What we've seen some leading brands do now is really incorporate some analytics and gen AI to go from thinking about the season to building out versions of their images that are season specific using generative ai so they could analyze what's going on in the category, what are other brands doing, what are those opportunities to be seasonally? And now imagine we were two or three years back, they would then maybe go write a brief, they would plan three, six, maybe even 12 months ahead for that seasonal opportunity.

(21:00):

Now that same brand with the click of a button can say, Hey, take this product. I want a version of this product for Valentine's Day, for Mother's Day, for back to school, Halloween, whatever it is. And all of a sudden they have a visual brief that they can then give to their brand and design teams and say, Hey, we went from these recommendations and these ideas for what we could do to be seasonally relevant to something you can look at in a matter of a couple minutes, maybe even as fast as a few seconds. So really what's changed here is the brand's ability to visualize what being seasonally relevant looks like has accelerated tremendously. And that's unlocking these leading brands to be able to say, Hey, we are going to update our copy and our imagery and our content to be relevant for all these different seasons, and we are going to plan the calendar.

(21:59):

We know what's coming, but we can then action the content based on what's going on in the category much later in the process because we're able to execute much faster. So they can do that from a seasonal perspective and they can then go look at other moments, trends that are happening in the space and use generative AI to build out content concepts and even real content that they're going to use on the digital shelf in just a few seconds. And so that is truly transformative when it comes to something that brands have always wanted to do, but it has been really hard to execute on.

Peter Crosby (22:39):

People are saying that the prompt is the new creative brief,

Dave Feinleib (22:44):

Get

Peter Crosby (22:44):

All of your brand stuff, all the stuff that you would put in a creative brief should be in your prompt to be able to get the kind of results that you're looking for. Have you experienced that at all?

Dave Feinleib (22:55):

Yeah, I would say absolutely. So we've seen brands incorporate brand style guidelines into the prompts so they can have creative that is on brand, and maybe that applies even to the messaging, the visuals, the context of the images. We then see them incorporate retailer guidelines. So they've got these brand requirements, they've got the retailer requirements that can all go into the prompt. And then the amazing thing about this is they can produce images at fairly large scale and say, not only here's a brief, when we used to look at a brief, gosh, it was dozens of slides and images and text and the work that went into writing that brief was tremendous. And oftentimes you'd put in all that effort to build out the, and someone say, great job on the brief, but it's just not aligned with the direction that we want to go in for the visuals.

(23:54):

Now you can take that brief and do a visual version of the brief, a visual content playbook, and people can just see and say, Hey, I've got a point of view on the actual execution of these images, but directionally I can see where we're headed with this creative for this seasonal opportunity or this retailer, and we're good with that and now let's go execute on it. So just the way we talked about sort of funnel compression, we're also seeing compression when it comes to the creative brief. You're building that into the prompt, you're executing, and then you're taking that next step, which is take that prompt, show me the picture. Once I see the picture now I really know we all know what we're talking about when it comes to building out that creative. So yeah, very transformative in this space.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (24:46):

And I also think it enables an omnichannel brief. So if I think back to my brand days, there was a brief for everything except e-comm, and then there was an e-comm brief, and I worked really hard to try and get all of that together. So you only had to brief one time. But I mean that still happens today where sometimes you brief on retail media creative and then you brief on e-commerce and then you might brief on a photo shoot that might be happening for lifestyle imagery. Now you can actually use it to your point, to have an omnichannel brief that covers every single place you are going to have an asset. So it reduces friction, it reduces cost, it gets everybody aligned. So I really think it's a great opportunity to bring all those cross-functional teams together too, to really think in a more omnichannel way instead of in silos.

Dave Feinleib (25:36):

It's a great point, and brands have always wanted to have some consistency across retail media and PDPs and in-store, and everyone wants to execute those in sync. But to your point, it's very hard to do. You have different budget cycles and planning cycles and teams and all that. This capability lets all of those teams see what are we talking about when it comes to this creative? And if they want to go in a different direction that's no longer a three to six month change that they have to go through, they can say, Hey, we want to change the direction on this or see something else, and a couple of minutes, maybe a few days with feedback and input and so on. And brands can really change the direction they're going in. So it's very powerful what we're seeing happen in this space, and it is truly omni, just like you're saying.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (26:29):

Just so exciting that we're finally getting there. So Dave, for anyone, any brand who might be listening and wants to pressure test their imagery and see if they're doing it right, where should they start? How should they of approach an audit of where they are from PDP carousels?

Dave Feinleib (26:47):

Yeah, the first thing I would say is take a look at one ASIN from the catalog. I think we always want to look at our whole portfolio and all the products we have, but start with one asin, pick up your mobile device, whatever that is, and just have a look at the product and ask yourself, can I understand this product from the images alone? Do I understand the story? Are the images clear? Can I see the relevant info? Is it going to work on a mobile device? Does it tell that entire story and are my claims proven or are they just stated in the copy? If they're really shown in the imagery, I'm off to a great start. And if they're not or maybe they're outdated or you're seeing a lot of stock imagery that doesn't look relevant, you already know that you've got a lot of work to do.

(27:40):

But a lot of brands we work with don't necessarily need more images. They really just need the right sequencing. They need images that are optimized for mobile, for conversion, for all these levers that we've talked about that are optimized for driving revenue. And so it's really about understanding that one asin. Then once you've done that and you've got a point of view on what do we care about when it comes to our images and our PDP, now you can bring in the right tech stack to really get insights on an ongoing basis and also execute on image refreshes at scale.

Peter Crosby (28:17):

So it's sort of like doing a one-time audit of one thing, get the process down and then figure out how to scale that process.

Dave Feinleib (28:27):

Yeah, a hundred percent. Get the process down. And also I think understand what are we looking for? Because images are really, really visual. And so you can have a point of view on are these clear? Do they tell the right info? Can I see it on a mobile device? Do they feel cluttered? Do they feel compelling? Are they on brand? You have to have a bit of creative understanding, but you don't have to have tons and tons of design experience to have a point of view on the images, look at one. And then, as you said, scale up the process.

Peter Crosby (29:03):

And how are you finding the teams that you're working with? What's the emotional response to these opportunities slash changes slash supercharging of this whole thing? Is it excitement? Is it suspicion? And has it changed over the last, I dunno, six months or a year? Are you finding the mindsets changing or I just love your read on kind of the temperature out there.

Dave Feinleib (29:36):

It has changed so much in the last year. We would have conversations a year or two ago, let's take the AI conversation where brands were seeing the potential, but they were rightly cautious about how am I going to adopt this? What am I getting? All of that, those same leading brands are using AI and using analytics and generative AI and all of that to go about their work today. So I think that has changed. And also people have gotten a level of comfort with, they're using Gemini, they're using chat GPT, they're using other AI engines in their day-to-day, either their personal lives or their work. And so they're a bit more comfortable with this tool set. And I'll say, we have designers we work with now, this is really the big change where we have designers who say, I can now, like I talked about earlier, work from a visual brief or build a visual brief in a matter of seconds, and that's going to optimize my communication with the brand team because a great designer doesn't want to spend the afternoon going back and forth.

(30:48):

Did you mean that color or this? Did you mean that font? Or did you want the product bigger or smaller? They want to work on the design and is it relevant for the brand and is it great creative? And so this is really freeing them up to do that and have much better communication with all of these teams in the company. So I think we have seen a huge change. Obviously the space is moving incredibly fast right now, both in terms of the tech, but also in terms of how people are adopting the technology. So as we all know, with every new piece of technology, there's a level of excitement and there's a level of caution. And I think right now, at least from what we're seeing, we're a bit more on that excitement level. And brands are kind of navigating, how do I put the right guardrails in place? How do I have the right workflows? Can I audit what's been done? Can I deliver all of this hard work, these images that I'm producing and what do my playbooks look like so that I can really operationalize this and run this repeatedly and make sure I am staying on brand and retailer compliance. So super exciting in the space. We're really excited about it and have the privilege to work with some amazing brands and partners in the space.

Peter Crosby (32:13):

That's terrific. Dave, you have very kindly offered DSI members an audit and tell us about that and how people can take advantage of it.

Dave Feinleib (32:26):

Yeah, we're happy to offer a PDP audit. You can send us an ASIN or a Walmart id and we will go and the images, the image carousel, the sequence, and give you the same kind of information, but in a very digestible way. And it'll cover a lot of the aspects that we talked about today. Some of these key levers in terms of sequencing, mobile readiness, all of that. It'll look at the entire PDP and really give you a very comprehensive view on what you can do to optimize your image carousel and your entire PDP for conversion. So all you've got to do is send us a product id. We'll take it from there. You can drop us a note and we'll respond back with the full audit.

Peter Crosby (33:23):

What's the best email or what's the best contact to get that ASIN to you?

Dave Feinleib (33:30):

Yeah, send me a note, Dave, at it's rapid.ai and drop us that product ID and we will run the audit and share that back over with you. So David, its wrapped

Peter Crosby (33:42):

Up ai. We're a brave man handing out your email. Yes, thank you on the DSI podcast to go from

Dave Feinleib (33:50):

Here. Happy to do it. We look forward to hearing from a lot of great brands and retailers as well.

Peter Crosby (33:57):

Thank you, Dave, so much for the intelligence, the data, and the offer. It's really generous of you. We love having you on. Thank you so much,

Dave Feinleib (34:05):

Peter and Lauren, always a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Lauren Livak Gilbert (34:08):

Thanks so much, Dave.

Peter Crosby (34:10):

Thanks again to Dave for his wisdom and generosity. Get some of that in person in May, as Dave will definitely be on scene for the Digital Shelf Summit in Atlanta, along with scores of other super smart experts and peers and even expert peers, digitalshelfsummit.com. Thanks for being part of our community.